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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 10 Feb 2002 :  19:36:06
quote:

Emulation is ok for apps that don't depend on speed.

For some 68040 games and sound apps that max out the old 68040 cpu emulation on a low end ppc might not be fast enough.


I'm not really into mp3's, but your work sounds fascinating. In the 68k coding thread somebody mentioned wondering about an application that could utilize the DSP on the Radius Photobooster. Might any of your code lend itself to that kind of co-processing on 68k or PPC Mac OS boxes?
just curious,
jt

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 10 Feb 2002 :  19:56:23

Not having a ppc mac I can't test the emulation speed exactly.

I found this at some site

A 66MHz 601 emulates the 68LC040 at an apparent clock speed greater than or equal to 25 MHz. (The 68LC040 is a lower cost version of the 68040 without an integral Floating Point Unit or Memory Management Unit.)

Now this sort of speed is highly variable.
I mean what did they do the emulation tests with.

If they used Microsoft Word or Claris Works for the tests then maybe the above speed applies but it might not apply to really cpu intensive apps like MpegDec.

About the DSP on the Radius Photobooster.

To program it you would have to get i'ts tech specs and then program it's registers directly using assembly language or maybe c.

It's possible but unless you already know the ins and outs of the DSP
it might not be worth the time.


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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 10 Feb 2002 :  20:18:52
quote:

About the DSP on the Radius Photobooster.

To program it you would have to get i'ts tech specs and then program it's registers directly using assembly language or maybe c.

It's possible but unless you already know the ins and outs of the DSP
it might not be worth the time.


Never really thought of it as a practical project, just wondered if an app like yours would benefit on a theoretical basis. It's too bad the Radius Rocket doesnt play nicely with sound, I'd love to see a few of them running your's or similar code in parallel under Rocketshare.

jt

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 11 Feb 2002 :  03:23:51

The Audiomedia II card as used by Deck, Pro Tools etc could be used by MpegDec.

It might speed it up a bit and could also include realtime digital effects.

The Radius Photobooster is a graphics card and I don't see much use for it with a app like MpegDec except maybe some wild visual effects.

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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 11 Feb 2002 :  06:08:06
quote:

The Audiomedia II card as used by Deck, Pro Tools etc could be used by MpegDec.

It might speed it up a bit and could also include realtime digital effects.


interesting, that one a DSP card too?
quote:

The Radius Photobooster is a graphics card and I don't see much use for it with a app like MpegDec except maybe some wild visual effects.

I know the Photobooster was sold as a graphics coprocessor for PhotoShop, but I thought it was a general purpose DSP platform, memories are dim tho. When it was mentioned in other thread the purpose seemed to be to find new (nan-graphics) applications for the technolog, so signalprocessing/compression/decompression/realtime seemed like a good fit.
jt

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 12 Feb 2002 :  21:57:47

I think the Audiomedia II card is not easy to find.

It has been discontinued.


Audiomedia II
Features + Specifications

Stereo direct-to-disk digital recording and playback
16-bit, 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rates
Stereo analog input and output (RCA-type connectors)
Stereo S/PDIF digital input and output (RCA-type connectors)
Waveform editing at single sample resolution
Non destructive playlist editing
Digital signal processing (DSP), including newly improved stereo time compression and expansion, pitch shifting, sample rate conversion, real-time dynamics processing, and multi-band graphic and parametric EQs
Continuous SMPTE resynchronization
System includes the Audiomedia II sound card, Sound Designer II software, and three RCA cables
Compatible with Pro Tools™ Software and Session® Software for multi-track audio recording, editing and mixing


System Requirements

A NuBus-equipped Macintosh II (030 CPU), Centris or Quadra series, or NuBus PowerPC-based computer (including Macintoshes and Mac clones), running System 7.1, or higher, in 32-bit mode
8 Megabytes of RAM minimum
External SCSI hard disk requirements: With Sound Designer II: 18ms access time for stereo recording. With digital audio sequencers: 18ms access time for multi-track recording.
Recording length is limited only by hard disk size (10 megabytes per minute of stereo recording at 44.1 kHz sample rate)

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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  06:29:16
quote:

I think the Audiomedia II card is not easy to find.

It has been discontinued.


that's why photobooster would make better choice for signal-copro, there were always lots more pixel junkies. 'boosters should be a lot easier to find as are obsolete for main function, whereas media folks are still lovin' 68k/NuBus toys. i even saw a couple new ones available when i was nosing around rocket info online during recent attack of sentimentality.

not sure enough of either were ever made/sold to be worthwile project unless for "wow!" factor. Clustering a stack of microquadras or 610's to do same thing might be better even for that, put a turntable on top and add rom-burner and removable hdd trays to add'l 610's, might make for an interesting stack/hack.

co/multiproc babble is just brainstorming fun and games for me,
your project is plenty "wow" just as is,
jt

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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader


USA
2965 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  09:04:43
Dana nabbed an AudioMedia II card for free, along with the rest of her impressive Q950!

They regularly sell on eBay for US$100 or more...

666th poster to the
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Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
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danamania
Official 68k Muse


Australia
1193 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  11:02:04
quote:

Dana nabbed an AudioMedia II card for free, along with the rest of her impressive Q950!

They regularly sell on eBay for US$100 or more...

And you wouldn't believe ebay here - the week after you told me all about their value, *2* of them came up on ebay!. One went for around $80, the other a little over $100 australian.

dana

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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader


USA
2965 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  11:09:26
Wow, AUS$100, now that's a haul! They seem to fetch more down under because they're probably even rarer there than here...

666th poster to the
68K Macintosh Liberation Army Forums
Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  12:23:20
quote:

Wow, AUS$100, now that's a haul! They seem to fetch more down under because they're probably even rarer there than here...

huh? thought was more like aus100=50-60us?
jt

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cinemafia
Guerrilla Recon Leader


USA
2965 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  12:51:08
Oh yeah...I was thinking backward. Damn these conversions...perhaps we should all embrace a one-world currency...like diamonds in The Day the Earth Stood Still...

666th poster to the
68K Macintosh Liberation Army Forums
Mod of the Mac II series Forums
Total 68K Macs liberated: 7
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Trash80toG-4
NIGHT STALKER


USA
2899 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  14:31:41
quote:

...perhaps we should all embrace a one-world currency...like diamonds in The Day the Earth Stood Still...

nah! general barter system like Lucifer's Hammer, have more fun haggling that way. put all the suitweasels outta work that way too! the non-weasel suits will all find something constructive to do after the weasels get thinned out and can't make'em take stuff apart to make money any more, never understood that one!
jt

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Marchie
Chaplain


USA
911 Posts		 Posted - 13 Feb 2002 :  16:11:45
Hmm... I wonder if I can make it run on a IIfx....

I'm going ot have to try this out on the Quadra 630.

~Marchie

Edited by - marchie on 13 Feb 2002 16:16:53Go to Top of Page
jawa78
Starting Member



1 Posts		 Posted - 15 Feb 2002 :  10:28:36
I been playing with it and it is a nice piece of software. It runs great on my lc 630 with 48 megs of ram. Also I Due run Mac emulators bII Jit and the dos based Fusion 68k macintosh emulator. They run great under the emulators. (BII jit Linux) (fusion for dos running on Dosemu on slackware) wish it had a play and pause stop etc buttons but give it some time it will happen

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maclover5
LC Doctor/Hot Rodder


Australia
5830 Posts		 Posted - 16 Feb 2002 :  18:00:11
quote:

Hmm... I wonder if I can make it run on a IIfx....

I'm going ot have to try this out on the Quadra 630.

~Marchie

Edited by - marchie on 13 Feb 2002 16:16:53

How much RAM do you have in your 630? I have 36 meg in mine, and MpegDec works like a charm, as long as you have AppleTalk off and don't do anything else on the Mac at the time.

--------------------------

Pizzabox LCs RULE!!!!!!!

Warrior maclover5
68k Macintosh Liberation Army
Number of 68ks Liberated: 5Go to Top of Page
markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 19 Feb 2002 :  03:23:09

MpegDec Interface Update.

So far I've got MpegDec's new features about on par with GrayAmp's.

I've got Draggable Playists and Icon Controls happening.

I'm just working on the final look.

The next release won't be iTunes but it will be an improvement on the 2.0 version.

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 19 Feb 2002 :  04:59:57

I think it is possible for 68040 Linux users to play mp's
using mpg123.

I havn't tried it but it should work.
The only thing that might slow it down is if the Linux sound driver is a bit slow.

You need to get the nonfpu version of mpg123 from www.mpg123.de.

The latest version mpg123-pre0.59s.tar.gz has nonfpu support I think.

The nonfpu version is faster than the fpu version.

Then get it to compile with gcc and it should play a mp3 from the command line with something like ./mpg123 -2 -m mymp3.mp3.

It even has basic playlist stuff.

It's not as fast as MpegDec but mpg123's speed is not too bad.

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FireWire is fast
General, 4 star


USA
1559 Posts		 Posted - 19 Feb 2002 :  06:50:14
quote:

MpegDec Interface Update.

So far I've got MpegDec's new features about on par with GrayAmp's.

I've got Draggable Playists and Icon Controls happening.

I'm just working on the final look.

The next release won't be iTunes but it will be an improvement on the 2.0 version.

hurrah!!!!

--------------------
FireWire is fast
General, 4 star
beholder of the Quadra/Centris Stick of Justice™Go to Top of Page
Wonkothesane
Full Member


USA
506 Posts		 Posted - 19 Feb 2002 :  19:44:15
This Mp3 player looks cool, I'd like to try it out my 660 A/V.
How fast is 68k emulation on a G3? I tried it on my ibook and I got lots of skipping. It might work well on my Quadra, though, because it is an A/V model.

Wonko The Sane
Engineer-in-training
3 Macs Liberated
"You can't possibly be a scientist if you mind people thinking that you're a fool."- Wonko The SaneGo to Top of Page
markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 20 Feb 2002 :  03:40:45

I would like to know how it runs on a 660av.

Even though it's only a 25Mhz 68040 it has a better DSP then say the LC575 (33Mhz 68040) which can get stereo output at the lowest quality with MpegDec.

I think the 660av has sound output frequency options (like the 840av) so I'd set the sound output at 22050Hz and then use the MpegDec downsample by 2 option.

The skipping on ppc macs is a mystery to me.
I don't have a ppc mac so I can't debug it.

If anyone has an answer please post a reply.


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thecube84
New Member


USA
56 Posts		 Posted - 23 Feb 2002 :  14:05:37
when will the new version come out??
btw i am running the program on a 33mhz powerbook duo 280c fine, with quality 2 and downsampled by 2, mono

pretty good i am only givin it 6 mb of ram, too

i would like a better gui, though

--
//=\\ |L |E ><
|F (()) |R ||))Go to Top of Page
candyPunk
Full Member


USA
856 Posts		 Posted - 23 Feb 2002 :  15:07:03
quote:


I would like to know how it runs on a 660av.

Even though it's only a 25Mhz 68040 it has a better DSP then say the LC575 (33Mhz 68040) which can get stereo output at the lowest quality with MpegDec.

I think the 660av has sound output frequency options (like the 840av) so I'd set the sound output at 22050Hz and then use the MpegDec downsample by 2 option.

The skipping on ppc macs is a mystery to me.
I don't have a ppc mac so I can't debug it.

If anyone has an answer please post a reply.

I ran it on my 660av until I got my new Q800. It's...not great. I can only get mono unless I downsample by 4. That's not really usable. Downsampling by 2 and quality = 1 works OK in mono. Stereo is pretty much a no-go, though. Downsampling by 4 is BAD!
On the Q800 (33mhz 040) I can get stereo and quality = 1 with downsampling at 2 and system return at medium. It's nice.

When I try to play certain long songs (large files) it skips a little in the beginning. Any connection or do I have a few bad files?

{ candyPunk }
{ Captain of Observation, 68k MLA }
{ Macs liberated: 3, under Firewire's qualifications }
{ My baby: Q660av }

Edited by - candyPunk on 23 Feb 2002 15:13:23Go to Top of Page
markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 24 Feb 2002 :  05:39:06

I have about 75% of the new version finished.

If 25Mhz macs are too slow there is always the option of decoding to a aiff or aifc file and play it back with SoundApp 68k.

MpegDec is a lot faster than SoundApp 68k at decoding mp3's to aiff.

I'd decode to aifc because it takes up a 1/4 of the disk space aiff does.

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FireWire is fast
General, 4 star


USA
1559 Posts		 Posted - 24 Feb 2002 :  14:07:24
quote:

If 25Mhz macs are too slow there is always the option of decoding to a aiff or aifc file and play it back with SoundApp 68k.

MpegDec runs fine on my 25 MHz 68LC040 Quadra 605...

I'll test it on my funkymobovideo Centris 610 (20 Mhz 68LC040) in the near future...

--------------------
Spellcheck/Grammar Bandit and beholder of:
-the Quadra/Centris Stick of Justice™
-the HTML Keyboard of Greater Knowledge™
-Compact Mac Wand of Power with Shocking Flyback Transformer Tip™
--------------------

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candyPunk
Full Member


USA
856 Posts		 Posted - 24 Feb 2002 :  18:01:29
Well, it runs fine for me too, in MONO! Can you play in stereo at 22050 Hz, Firewire? I was saying that I couldn't play in stereo. Otherwise, the quality was fair. Downsampling by 2 is pretty good, and the quality setting was 1, I think. The issue was the 2 channels.

{ candyPunk }
{ Captain of Observation, 68k MLA }
{ Macs liberated: 3, under Firewire's qualifications }
{ My baby: Q660av }Go to Top of Page
markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 26 Feb 2002 :  04:20:02

Here is my personal opinion on how useful MpegDec is.


It is a mp3 player for OLD MACS.

If you want top quality sound and want a fantastic interface
that sucks up a lot of cpu power
and be able to multitask 6 different apps while a mp3 plays in the
background run iTunes on a recently released mac.

Playing mp3s on an old mac is a bit of a novelty
( at least The Pickle seems to think so )
and MpegDec is never going to be able to playback mp3s
with top quality on an old Mac that is why it has so many playback options.

It can decode to Aiff with top quality if you want.

It doesn't sound too bad on my color classic 68040
but I don't use my color classic for mp3 decoding expecting the highest mp3 sound quality.

MpegDec does what it was designed to do run mp3s on old macs
without sounding too bad.


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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 05 Mar 2002 :  21:09:35

Here are a few things about the AudioMedia II card I discovered cruising around the net.

The AudioMedia II card uses a Motorola 56001 DSP and apparently came as standard on some Atari Falcons.

The Atari is also 680x0 based.

There is an Atari mp2 (not mp3) player that uses the 56001 DSP and the speed increase by using the DSP is quite a lot.

And there is also an Atari mp3 player that uses the 56001 DSP.

So if MpegDec made use of the 56001 DSP it would speed it up quite a bit.

It's a shame there are not that many 56001 DSP based macs out there.

Here are some Nubus 56001 DSP cards I found.

Mac Nubus boards, Motorola DSP56000 processor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: MAC-56
Type: Macintosh NuBus DSP56001 card
Company: Ariel Corp. (908) 249-2900
Processor: 56001 with 48-192K words RAM
Comments: Comes with DSPworks software

Name: AudioMedia II
Type: Macintosh NuBus DSP56001 card
Company: DigiDesign Inc. (415) 688-0600
Processor: 56001 @ 33.87 MHz with 8/4/4 K words P/X/Y RAM
Analog I/O: stereo 16 bit 44.1/48 kHz A/D, D/A (?)
Features: SPDIF I/O. Supported by DSP Designer software from Zola
Technologies Inc.

Name: Sound Accelerator II
Type: Macintosh NuBus DSP56001 card
Company: DigiDesign Inc. (415) 688-0600
Processor: 56001 @ 33.87 MHz with 8/16/16 K words P/X/Y RAM
Features: Optional digital/analogue audio I/O unit available. Supported by
DSP Designer software from Zola Technologies Inc.

Name: Pro Tools
Type: Macintosh NuBus 2 x DSP56001 card
Company: DigiDesign Inc. (415) 688-0600
Processor: 2 x 56001 32 MHz, 8/16/16 K words P/X/Y RAM each
Features: Optional digital/analogue audio I/O unit available.
Supported by DSP Designer software from Zola Technologies Inc.

Name of Board: DSP56001 Application Development System (ADS)
Type: DSP56001 board for Mac II
Company: Motorola Corp. (512) 891-2030
Processor: DSP56001
Comments: This is an external board that interfaces to a variety of hosts,
including the Mac, via host-specific adaptor cards.


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alcoa
Full Member


Albania
543 Posts		 Posted - 06 Mar 2002 :  11:47:55
quote:

Here are a few things about the AudioMedia II card I discovered cruising around the net.

The AudioMedia II card uses a Motorola 56001 DSP and apparently came as standard on some Atari Falcons.

The Atari is also 680x0 based.

It's a shame there are not that many 56001 DSP based macs out there.


have you seen anything about a chipset to put this dsp on the 68040 cpu bus? since cpu and dsp are both from motorola, it might be very straightforward to design a daughtercard upgrade for the 68040 socket which would be exactly the same interface configuration as the LC630 DOS compatability cards. if the 56001 was produced during the design or production of the 68040 it might have been designed for use on the bus without any chipset or glue circuitry required at all.

jt

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alcoa
Full Member


Albania
543 Posts		 Posted - 07 Mar 2002 :  13:51:51
quote:

Here are a few things about the AudioMedia II card I discovered cruising around the net.

i looked around a little for info, it looks more complicated than i had hoped. the ham radio guys have been playing with some dsp evaluation kits. an interface hack of an available card would probably be easier than what i was daydreaming about anyway.


the prisma card looks interesting, check out:
http://www.prisma-eng.it/html_eng/dsp56kboard.html

here is some info on the motorala boards:
http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/Fkc7ww.qex_article_8_95.html
http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/dspf.html

is this where you found your info, if not i think there are a few more.
http://www.hr/josip/DSP/FAQ/41.html

jt

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 07 Mar 2002 :  22:01:28

The Prisma card has a PC ISA adapter so it might be possible to use it with a PC mac emulator.

The 56001 is an interesting chip.
It has a lot of advanced audio features.

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alcoa
Full Member


Albania
543 Posts		 Posted - 07 Mar 2002 :  22:15:01
quote:

The Prisma card has a PC ISA adapter so it might be possible to use it with a PC mac emulator.

The 56001 is an interesting chip.
It has a lot of advanced audio features.


if it can interface to an ISA bus it should be possible to wedge it into the mac i/o at some point by building a different adapter, the only pricing info i saw was a reference to the eval boards being in the $95-150 range so they may be a little too pricey. Is the 56002 a newer version or a different animal alltogether?

jt

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 09 Mar 2002 :  06:25:44

There is heaps of info on 68k chips at

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/motorola/68k-chips-faq/

I think it covers everything motorola made with the 68k architecture.

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 11 Mar 2002 :  04:40:30

The good news is MpegDec could use the av macs DSP the AT&T 3210 for a speed gain on those models.

The bad news is it isn't easy to program the AT&T 3210 and it's a forgotten thing as far as mac development goes.

Maybe in the future I might do something with it.

Also when people think of mp3's they usually think of music but don't forget there are also mp3 books around.

With the mp3 books sound quality would'nt matter much so they are good for the slower macs.


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alcoa
Full Member


Albania
543 Posts		 Posted - 11 Mar 2002 :  06:28:43
quote:

The good news is MpegDec could use the av macs DSP the AT&T 3210 for a speed gain on those models.

has anyone seen a block diagram of the architecture of the 3210/68040 AV graft changes compared with the standard quadra architecture? i've never seen block diagrams of anything past the IIfx.

a block diagram of the 68060 accelerator for the amiga would be another good candidate for keeping a sharp lookout when surfing.

i don't really think any viable product could be developed, but you never know, there might be a chink for a thin blade somewhere.

block diagrams and architectural comparisons would also make great content on our site, btw.

jt

=8-}

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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 14 Mar 2002 :  02:51:18

I got MpegDec running with play pause stop rewind forward controls but it slowed to a crawl.

I think it's because the control code is taking over the 68040 cache and MpegDec needs the 68040 8kb cache to run smoothly.

The cache makes a big difference.

On some old 486's I've used the addition of 128KB level 2 cache made a big difference in performance.

Maybe I can use the standard apple controls instead of the 3D ones I was using.

The standard controls might not interfere so much with the cache.


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markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 14 Mar 2002 :  04:44:45

No go using Apples standard controls either.

I think MacOS is using BlockMove to update the controls and Blockmove flushes the 8kb cache so it looks like Mpegdec won't have controls.

Anyway the next release will have a playlist feature and will have drag and drop folder support as well as drag and drop file support.

Also the MP3 types have been extended and MpegDec will accept any mp3 file with the .mp3 extension.

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FireWire is fast
General, 4 star


USA
1559 Posts		 Posted - 14 Mar 2002 :  06:50:42
quote:

Also the MP3 types have been extended and MpegDec will accept any mp3 file with the .mp3 extension.

Yeah! My Reacharound(anybody remember them?): "Big Chair" mp3 will work then!

--------------------
Spellcheck/Grammar Bandit and beholder of:
-the Quadra/Centris Stick of Justice™
-the HTML Keyboard of Greater Knowledge™
-Compact Mac Wand of Power with Shocking Flyback Transformer Tip™
--------------------Go to Top of Page
markymark
Junior Member



223 Posts		 Posted - 14 Mar 2002 :  22:30:06

Found the problem with the controls.

Something else was interfering with the cache.

The Controls are ok for the next release.

I'm testing for bugs and stuff.

It should be released soon.

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~Coxy
Leader, Tactical Ops Unit


Australia
2822 Posts		 Posted - 15 Mar 2002 :  06:59:43
Good work! The world needs more devlopers like you!

~Coxy - Leader, Tactical Operations Unit
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