Sorry to all you os x'ers I hav'nt had the pleasure of that yet.

Well I try to set up the pc the way I want it but then it just reverts to the way it likes it. Same old moan about iconifying files & not allowing a clear sort, in both pc & mac the internet files are downloaded where? I'll be damned if I can find them or be bothered to find them, it is just so much hard work to make these computers do anything usefull(os.9 on Mac is particularly bad & ME on Windows is getting on my wick)

I've gotta get a try of OS X yeah?

shaktiman

Both Operating Systems are born on the goal of the perfect GUI, and both suffer from a lack of complexity..they are so simple that at first it's actually difficult to use them. Both use new icon formats, new images and graphics and themes that visually set them apart from thier previous versions.

In the race before X, Windows 95 and OS 8 were the "new age" Operating Systems both companies were rushing to get out, and as a result, both came out as buggy as ever, even though I believe Microsoft edged out and had 95 before OS 8 came out.

Macintosh & PC both suffer from various design & marketing flaws. The PC side suffers from design flaws and cheap mass produced components that generally do not adhere to strict standards and are not reliable. PC's also suffer from design flaws that seperate many features of a Macintosh & PC. For example, Macintosh users could boot from a RAM Disk to do system diagnostic. PC Users could not, and Macintosh users had no 640KB memory roof whereas PC's did. So there are many areas that are unique weaknesses to each side. The Macintosh mostly suffered in marketing decisions where the ideas of the entire line were often influenced by one person at the top. It is widely known how arrogant Steve Jobs was in the early years about Macintosh, and although it can be understood, it did little for the company. Even though Jobs has softened a bit, it is only under pressure from many users and the fear that if he doesn't open some things up people will abandon the architecture.

Both machines have thier place, although the Macintosh side has always been a totem of intelligent design with common logic, where the PC has been a totem for disorganized thinking with care for speed with no thought to consequence. (The typical example of shortcuts that PC users will try to take in any course of events of backups or functions, where it is known that these shortcuts are not reliable. The Macintosh by comparison would refue to take shortcuts, only performing functions in a reliable way. Slower, but with a gaurantee of success.)

The main point against Macintosh is Apple's attempt to make a machine design cover even the mouse. The iMac mice are examples of horrible designs that only served cosmetic purpose. That and Apple refuses to open up as much as people would like, and Apple has abandoned past users and forced everyone to use a new Operating System with no seeming care for vicims who fall along the way. (These users sadly end up purchasing a cheap PC to replace an aging Macintosh.)

The argument over PC's is the blindness of users who put up with Microsoft and other companies who constantly stab them in the back. The PC side also has more con people who want to sell cheap mass produced goods and flood the market with useless junk that simply wastes peoples time. The PC is the breeding ground for viruses, spam, pop-ups and aggressive advertising. Seldom is something free.

Maybe you can balance the two. Sadly, not many do.

In addition to that, QuarkXPress (the last major app to actually make the move from 9, to X) has already made the move.

I see no reason, why, after 3-4 years of warning, and preparing it's people, Apple shouldn't make the switch. If someone feels left behind, or betrayed by Apple for moving to OSX, then I wouldn't know what to say to them, other than that they should try OSX one time. Personally, I used to hate OSX with a PASSION. I then got the TiBook, was able to use it a bit, and even installed it on the iMac 233, wherein I learned that OSX is fast on EVERYTHING.

As far as "New Age" I can really see only a few things that seperates OS8, from OS 7.6. One is HFS+ support. The other is it's shiny new appearance, which can easily be added to any mac running 7.0 or better.
Just like it's mac counterpart, all Windows 95 really got was a nice facelift, and boy is it a big change from 3.1. Although, you can still use 3.1's Program Manager, even today in Windows XP, that is the big change that Windoes users got. They got an entire new desktop system, where they could more easily see their file structure, and for however much it cost to upgrade, it was like they were getting ever-closer to almost being on a Macintosh.

As far as Windows XP vs. Mac OS X is concerned, neither are the first of this kind of "NextGen" OS, actually, Windows XP has it's roots in Windows 2000 and WinNT technology, which dates back to the 3.1 days (the first version of NT was 3.1)
Mac OS X gets it's roots from NeXTStep, which originated in 1986 IIRC, but with apple, it was gaining speed around the mid-late 1990s. This'd be probably '96-'97 with Rhapsody.

All of that having been said, there are differences in the macintosh market, and the PC market, HUGE fundamental differences, that have helped to make or break the platforms in many respects.

One of the first things y'all notice about macintoshes, is that theyre expensive right? That partially comes from the fact that Apple has no direct competition when making the machines, and that Apple, who has complete control over the mac market, uses high quality components, manufactured to great standards. And it manufactures it's own products to high standards.

On the other hand, you have the PC market, anyone can make anything inthis market, you either have to rely on Microsoft and the linux community to write drivers for hardware, or you need to write them yourself (if you're a hardware developer). Also, there's no surefire way to make sure that whatever you create, will actually work on everything. Apple, on the other hand, provides compatibility labs, including every single machine, from the original PowerBook and PowerMac G3 machines, to the very latest G5's, all in Cupertino, or someplace in Japan.

By completely controlling all of the hardware that goes into it's computer, the software that they create for it, and the ways that it's all packaged together, Apple works very hard to ensure that their systems, while might be expensive, work, and work great. Apple's been able to do this for a very long time, and for the most part, even the machines from a very long time ago, are functioning fantastically today.

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Well I try to set up the pc the way I want it but then it just reverts to the way it likes it. Same old moan about iconifying files & not allowing a clear sort, in both pc & mac the internet files are downloaded where? I'll be damned if I can find them or be bothered to find them,

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Apple ][e. Apple ][gs, LC 3, Q605, Perf 638, Colour Classic (300 603ev) 2*6100, 7200, PTP 225 (Quad 604), G4 Cube

"One slip and down the hole we fall"

Stryders Community

http://www22.brinkster.com/originalstryder/db/default.asp

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Well it's a bit pathetic saying you can't be bothered to figure it out, did you intuatively know where an Atari would download files to? were you born with this knowledge??

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Quadra 840av, prettymuchmaxedout8xcd drive
os 8.1
128 meg ram, 500 meg hard drive
3 monitors 15" & 14" & 14"

My 8500 448mb ram IDE drives and ultimaterez video and g3-400/1mb runs os 9 fast, while osx 10.1 (the one i tried) ran slower then shit.

While os 9 isnt the most stable os I have used, its ok for what I do with it.

win2k3 is very stable and usable on the PC side.

As far as the commects about the mac having everything built in, there are alot of boards out today with 5.1 sound, network, modem, and video built in and they are inexpensive.

That's like getting tools at the Dollar store and comparing them with Craftsman or Snap-On. Sure they're cheaper to buy, but they easier to break, prone to defects, and you end buying new ones all the time. Break a Craftsman, you go to Sears and trade it for a new one because they stand behind their tools. It's not just better made, but you have a hell of lot more protection in your investment.

"One slip and down the hole we fall"

Stryders Community

http://www22.brinkster.com/originalstryder/db/default.asp

"One slip and down the hole we fall"

Stryders Community

http://www22.brinkster.com/originalstryder/db/default.asp

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I think I may have mentioned "Comparable Systems".

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I'm just bringing up the point that dollar for dollar, you'll paying about the same for a Mac or a Dell with the same bells and whistles. There's not as much of a gap as the PC world would like us to believe.

"One slip and down the hole we fall"

Stryders Community

http://www22.brinkster.com/originalstryder/db/default.asp

LOTS of information on this topic.

I'm not going to get involved in the age old battle of Mac vs PC. My advice is try and get some of both. Then you can figure out for yourself which one you like better.

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I try to set things up the way I like it but then it just reverts to the way it likes it.

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Lady Smith Apples:
Apple IIc 5.25"
2 Apple IIe

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Sounds like your IE is screwed up. What version u using? You might want to try installing a newer version if you haven't already.

The Lightning Stalker

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Come and check it out.

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http://macvspc.info/

LOTS of information on this topic.

Homeland Defense Analyst
http://www.inourowndefense.com

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Come and check it out.

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You think Windows and Mac OS are hard to use, try using LINUX!

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I think I may have mentioned "Comparable Sysyems". Look through your back-issues of Mac-Addict for an article called "The Truth" in issue 76 where they even illustrate a break down of what's offered, included, and would cost extra. Of course you have sub-brands that you could buy that has stuff included for less, but that's not really comparing Apples to , um, a major brand like Apple itself is. You can still get cheaper versions of Macs that were built in a generic case, but would you take one of those and compare it with a Dell? Brand Name and the companies that make them have a lot to do with the cost along with the warrented support that comes with the purchase.

That's like getting tools at the Dollar store and comparing them with Craftsman or Snap-On. Sure they're cheaper to buy, but they easier to break, prone to defects, and you end buying new ones all the time. Break a Craftsman, you go to Sears and trade it for a new one because they stand behind their tools. It's not just better made, but you have a hell of lot more protection in your investment.

"One slip and down the hole we fall"

Stryders Community

http://www22.brinkster.com/originalstryder/db/default.asp

Come and check it out.

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"One slip and down the hole we fall"

Stryders Community

http://www22.brinkster.com/originalstryder/db/default.asp

I like to have a bit of this, and a bit of that, which is why I'm trying to get a bit of other things, a unix platform (SGI or Sun maybe...)

OSX lets you have the best of a graphical, and a text-based world, while windows can basically boast the ability to run on world's cheapest computers.

Cheap, is also not synonomous to bad.

Many older and even newer "Wintel" platform hardware is between dedent, and freakin' awesome... quality.

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Many older and even newer "Wintel" platform hardware is between dedent, and freakin' awesome... quality.

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"**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA
Official 68kMLA Detective
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hardware quality in general is starting to go downhill these days

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If I open my window all the bugs will get in…That's just one more reason to use a Mac!
Mac Portable
LC ||
SE/30
||si
||ci
Quadras: 660av, 950
PMs: 6100/G3/233, 6214CD, 5400/120, 7100/80av, 9500/G3/300
PB 5300ce
SuperMac C600 180, 240

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Many older and even newer "Wintel" platform hardware is between dedent, and freakin' awesome... quality.

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Yeah, but hardware quality in general is starting to go downhill these days. Ever wondered how you can get a G5 these days for about 2 grand or less, when Mac IIs used to sell for 10 grand? Thats because the overall quality of the system is becoming cheaper and cheaper.

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Just about everything that used to cost alot and is now real cheap is made in korea/china/singaope/etc. Miniturisation and multifunction chips also helped out in this area. Look at how many chips an old video card needed and look at a new one.

Stryder: it doesnt matter if you build you own pc or a friend/local shop does it. Quite a few computers are still sold without a major brand label to them, all basically using the same off the shelf parts (barebone systems).

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Brand Name and the companies that make them have a lot to do with the cost along with the warrented support that comes with the purchase.

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Which is why I'm not a carpenter.

I can't see why everyone things that quality has gone so far down and such, it is a whole line of things that make computers less expensive these days.

The first is, that mass producing, really does mean a whole lot of more mass these days, than 10+ years ago when the IIfx was the hot stuff on the desk.

In addition, lately, they need industrial designers less often, (they've been using the 4-handles G4 case how long now?)

Hard drives are cheaper, because of advancing technology, it's easier to make them, and more of them can be made, it's the same with memory and motherboards as well.

Also, more people are likely to buy a new G5 today, than people who bought a Mac IIfx however-many years ago.

also, because of inflation, 2000(today) is worth much more than 2000(13-15yearsago)

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I can't see why everyone things that quality has gone so far down and such, it is a whole line of things that make computers less expensive these days.

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"**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA
Official 68kMLA Detective
Number of 68ks Liberated: 7
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First off, I'm no fan of the Micorsoft "experience", I often yearn for the simplicity of the Mac and all the toys that OS X has to offer, but there comes a point where you look past those issues and just concentrate on getting the job done. The user experience is just one small part of the equation (albeit important).

There are also several reasons why I cannot just jump ship from Windows XP. First, I've just too much invested in hardware & software I already own for this platform, so swapping it with a Mac is out of the question. Switching to Linux is also not possible for me though I've tried it more than once. Once you're over the learning curve, Linux can be a joy to use, it's empowering, it's freedom, and if all I needed was a browser and a office suite it would do me just fine. I do a lot of video processing with freeware tools for WinXP which just aren't available for any other platform (at the same level anyway). These tools being, AVISynth - and the hoards of filters that come with it, VirtualDub, TMPGEnc, not to mention all the many video codecs that are available. With these tools (amoung others) I'm able to do amazing things with old analogue footage and transfer them to DVD for family and friends, all on a shoestring budget. The simple fact is, no other platform can do this for me. Even if OS X came out tomorrow for the x86, I'd still have a hard time switching.

That said, I continue to love Macs. For all my pc can do for me, it can't replace (with WinXP anyway) that feeling of using a Mac. Is it any wonder I've dedicated a corner to my laundry room to them? :)

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and that's why we have to compare Apple to several of the largest PC manufacturers.

Which is why I'm not a carpenter.

I can't see why everyone things that quality has gone so far down and such, it is a whole line of things that make computers less expensive these days.

The first is, that mass producing, really does mean a whole lot of more mass these days, than 10+ years ago when the IIfx was the hot stuff on the desk.

In addition, lately, they need industrial designers less often, (they've been using the 4-handles G4 case how long now?)

Hard drives are cheaper, because of advancing technology, it's easier to make them, and more of them can be made, it's the same with memory and motherboards as well.

Also, more people are likely to buy a new G5 today, than people who bought a Mac IIfx however-many years ago.

also, because of inflation, 2000(today) is worth much more than 2000(13-15yearsago)

Official 68k videographer
Official MLA TourGuide
Editor of the MLAgazine
"I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"

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I"m not sure how this keeps going over your head, but I'll freakin quote myself since you seem to keep missing the point.

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Brand Name and the companies that make them have a lot to do with the cost along with the warrented support that comes with the purchase.

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Break a Craftsman, you go to Sears and trade it for a new one because they stand behind their tools. It's not just better made, but you have a hell of lot more protection in your investment.

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If you were to buy a new Mac or Dell, etc, you are buying more than the computer in itself. You're purchasing a "Package" that includes software, support (tech and/or otherwise), plus a warrentee against defects for some term of time. This is NOT something that you get from building your own and is rare and more limited if you buy it from some local guy that made a small business out of building generic ones.

I'm not comparing just the parts that go into the machine. How hard is it for you to comprehend that?

"One slip and down the hole we fall"

Stryders Community

http://www22.brinkster.com/originalstryder/db/default.asp

Come and check it out.

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Let's not start comparing computers to tools.

Also, it's the price of the car that's gone DOWN, not the value of 2 grand...

because of inflation, 2 grand's value has gone up, because of quality and manufacturing techniques, the value(price) of a car has gone down.

I think it's a bullshit euphemism, every time I hear somebody talking about "PC", they are talking about WINDOWS. Not Dos, not Linux, but an X86 computer which, is specifically running WINDOWS. If so many people prefer WINDOWS, then why can't they say so?

There are dozens ov good operating systems out there. And OS X is one ov my very faves. UNIX stability with minimal latency for audio work. It works without breaking, but if it does break, I can fix it.
What is so great about the 8086 assembly language which defines Windows? Not much really. The processors are ok, Win2k is ok. Neither are anything to shout about. Not anything really great, but I am supposed to use as my (the?) de-facto platform? It's not robust enough to be "the standard", and it's not very good for end users.

What makes a good chip architecture? What makes a fly bus? What makes an operating system solid, responsive, and expandable?

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so those interns are fake then? or they're i[native americans] with masks? either way, they're based in Texas, where [native americans] are most likely abound, unless you're talking about people from India...

Also, it's the price of the car that's gone DOWN, not the value of 2 grand...

because of inflation, 2 grand's value has gone up, because of quality and manufacturing techniques, the value(price) of a car has gone down.

Official 68k videographer
Official MLA TourGuide
Editor of the MLAgazine
"I'm just a normal computer geek who somehow landed a social life"

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Apples and Oranges is more like it. "Mac" is a kind ov computer made by one company. What is "PC"? Personal computer? The IBM computer from like 20 years ago? Does IBM even make computers anymore?

I think it's a bullshit euphemism, every time I hear somebody talking about "PC", they are talking about WINDOWS. Not Dos, not Linux, but an X86 computer which, is specifically running WINDOWS. If so many people prefer WINDOWS, then why can't they say so?

There are dozens ov good operating systems out there. And OS X is one ov my very faves. UNIX stability with minimal latency for audio work. It works without breaking, but if it does break, I can fix it.
What is so great about the 8086 assembly language which defines Windows? Not much really. The processors are ok, Win2k is ok. Neither are anything to shout about. Not anything really great, but I am supposed to use as my (the?) de-facto platform? It's not robust enough to be "the standard", and it's not very good for end users.

What makes a good chip architecture? What makes a fly bus? What makes an operating system solid, responsive, and expandable?

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In closing if the boneheads at apple would have kissed the game makers asses during the PC dos era when dos users like me were trying to edit config.sys and using multiple memory managers to get games to work they would have owned the computer market. But this just shows why a proprietary platform that picks and choses its market cant compete with an open ended platform where anything goes.

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"**** em" - Jobs in regards to customers
Warrior maclover5
68kMLA
Official 68kMLA Detective
Number of 68ks Liberated: 7
Number of Contraband (PPC) Liberated from the Dumpster: 1

well that migh've been a typo...

because yeah, the dollar continually buys you less and less, it was probably actually me tryhing to prove the point about how the G5 is, in fact, cheaper than a IIfx was...

(you noticed that ALL computers are getting cheaper right?)

:shudder: /me imagines a mac made by... (well actually, that would be pretty cool... Compaq Prolinea 040/33)

I think the IIfx was probably the fastest desktop computer out in its time, and the price reflected that. The G5 while a great leap forward isnt the top dog in desktop speed, its also not 2x as expensive as a pc either so its a good design/cost ratio.

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