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SCSI2SD vs Floppy Emu

ben68

6502
I keep vacillating between these two options. But it seems to me like the Floppy Emu is a better choice for compact Macs, because:

  • You can plug it in externally.
  • You can manage disk images easily, using a Windows PC.
  • It works like a HD if you want it to.
What are your thoughts? I know some of you use both - I'm not sure that's necessary.

 
I'd consider them complimentary products. If you have a Mac with a SCSI port and want a reliable, quiet, no-moving-parts full-time hard disk replacement a SCSI2SD is sort of a no brainer. It's easy enough to hang one off the 25 pin port on the back if you want it externally, and, well, it'll just sit there and do its job. If you're using a SCSI-equipped compact regularly and don't explicitly need to juggle floppy images it's a fire and forget solution for mass storage.

By contrast, the FloppyEMU's hard disk emulation is significantly slower (not that you'll notice too much on something like a Plus) and only works on a relatively small number of Macs. (Granted that range covers every compact other than the SE/30.) It's certainly better than nothing, sure, and it's also the only choice if you have something like a 512k(e)/Macintosh ED... but what it's *really* good for in both Floppy and HD20 emulation modes is, as you say, "sneakernet"-ing disk images and data from a modern machine.

If you can only afford one then, well, I'd say most people would probably get more functionality out of the Floppy Emu, but if you can afford both there's no reason to have to choose.

 
I think I'd prefer the set and forget - but I don't see an easy way to get data onto the SCSI2SD. I read a thread here that provides a way to do it, but I'd have to test it to be sure it works. Otherwise, I'd have to use the error-prone floppy drives on the SE/30 to load it up. Is there another or better way to load the SD?

 
On my SCSI2SD (CF Card Version) I just use CF Cards and the PCMCIA CF adapter in a PBG3 wallstreet.. Works great!! So I can put stuff on and so on from my wallstreet G3.. 

 
Yup.. no problems.. I did have issues with the SD card SCSI2SD but I think its my PCMCIA adapter.. But with the CF SCSI2SD no issues... 

 
I don't know of a better way to load the SCSI2SD. You basically set it up, plug it into your Mac or other SCSI-using device, and it becomes that computer's hard disk.

The FloppyEmu will be better for "transporting" data, but that's still floppy images, as opposed to, say, CD-ROM images or emulating something like a Magneto Optical drive or other removable media where in the style of FloppyEmu you could remove the SD card and mount it on a modern computer and manipulate those images there.

I'll mention here that I don't have either -- yet. I've long been meaning to get one or the other, both, really. I just haven't had the occasion or justification, yet. I'm fortunate enough that on all my Macs, the original disks and diskette drives are still running. What I want to do long-term really is to set up a file server where document data and things like my software installers are.

Of course, that's going to be varyingly useful on (probably) System 6 compacts, kind of depending on how much you like localtalk and what storage you end up with.

Some combination of FloppyEmu and a LocalTalk network with a newer Mac, or a localtalk bridge and a netatalk2 or Microsoft Services For Mac configuration may end up working best. Localtalk is nice in that you can join almost any beige Mac to it, although anything with Ethernet you'll want to use that instead.

 
On my SCSI2SD (CF Card Version) I just use CF Cards and the PCMCIA CF adapter in a PBG3 wallstreet.. Works great!! So I can put stuff on and so on from my wallstreet G3.. 
Is that specifically scsi2sd (scsi2CF?) or is it a different product/project like the CF AztecMonster? Either way, that confirms something Very Interesting™ about either that or the SCSI2SD (or both?)

Hypothetically if that works, you could get something like a powermac g4 or a tibook or whatever other USB-having Mac and put the SD card from your SCSI2SD into an SD card reader on it. It would be like using Target Disk Mode on a powerBook.

 
It's the CF AztecMonster.. I think its a well made SCSI2CF board.. I do have a SCSI2SD but it's a bit of a pain.. Loading firmware upgrades and making changes to settings and so on.. The AztecMonster acts just like a regular SCSI drive.. I have not seen it being sold lately on ebay.. I've tried to use a PCMCIA adapter card with the SCSI2SD Micro card without any luck.. But on the AztecMonster it works great.. Again I just use a SanDisk CF to PCMCIA adapter and whala! And my PBG3 Wallstreet is running 9.2.. I transfer back and fourth.. make drive images of the CF.. 

I don't want to knock the SCSI2SD but I prefer the AztecMonster product... 

There is also this one which I have not tried:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-pin-SCSI-to-CF-Card-Adapter-SCSI-Solid-State-Disk-Ships-from-the-U-S-A-/302234555679?hash=item465e95551f:g:~jMAAOSwCkZZSsRv

And I am not comparing the SCSI2SD or SCSI2CF with the Floppy EMU.... I've heard nothing but great things about the Floppy EMU.. I prefer these SCSI2CF's installed in the machines.. The Floppy EMU is great when hopping between machines. AND of course IDEAL for the 512K and others without a SCSI interface.... The floppy port's transfer rate is a lot slower than the SCSI interface.

 
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I use a FloppyEmulator and love it, it's been so much quicker to resurrect, install operating systems and diagnose suspect Macs using this device.  After this there becomes a need to install more software and my next purchase will be a SCSI2SD housed in an external 3D printed case (bus powered!) loaded up with everything I can put on it.

I currently use an Apple 2GB external SCSI drive loaded with software but it's getting louder by the day :)

 
You basically set it up, plug it into your Mac or other SCSI-using device, and it becomes that computer's hard disk
That's my understanding too. The problem, as always (if not ultimately) is that the floppy drive will fail. Then what?

And that's where the Floppy Emu comes in to save the day, whose SD is readable by a Windows PC. 

On a Windows PC, if I (theoretically) view the contents of a SCSI2SD card, via USB, I would expect it to not recognize it and want to format it. 

 
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As I read this through, I have a basic question about the SCSI2SD card - let's say I buy one for a Mac SE with a bad floppy drive.

How do I load it up to boot?

 
Obviously I'm biased, as the designer of the Floppy Emu. I do have a SCSI2SD also. SCSI2SD is great if you have a SCSI-equipped computer and you want something to replace the hard disk, that you'll leave permanently installed, and will basically use in the same way you would have used a real SCSI drive. Used in that fashion, it'll be faster than a Floppy Emu, and works on a wider variety of systems.

The big advantage of Floppy Emu is the ease of use. Setup just means copying some files to your SD card (or you can get a pre-made card with some sample disk images). It's very convenient for transporting data from the internet to your Mac, or between Macs. It's sort of like a Swiss army knife of a disk emulation tool. The disk images are stored on the SD card as regular files, so you can can easily open and edit them with tools like Mini vMac, or add new disk images to the card. In comparison, the SD card for the SCSI2SD is like a black box that's very difficult to use in anything but the SCSI2SD board. You already saw my other thread on that topic.

If you collect other systems, the Floppy Emu also supports the Lisa and the Apple II family.

 
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As I read this through, I have a basic question about the SCSI2SD card - let's say I buy one for a Mac SE with a bad floppy drive.

How do I load it up to boot?
You would need to have another computer you could use to format the card and load it with software, or else try the dd method I described in the post you linked to.

 
Thanks for the informative response. Since you also developed the ROM-inator - a brilliant bit of hardware - I wish there were a single ROM that I could replace the old one with that not only ran the System but also 20MB or so of apps and games - and easily configured with a modern PC - even a PC with vMac (basically, an all in one solution for ROM, HD, and FD). I think the ROM-inator Mega is pretty close to that. And maybe it does all that. I rely on my ignorance to gain knowledge. 

 
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It has probably been said enough, but I'll go ahead and say it again: Indeed, the SCSI2SD and the FloppyEmu are very different tools. Both, very valuable. Ultimately, it's not a particularly bad idea to, long-term, plan on getting both. Short-term, if your focus is on Compact Macs, get a FloppyEmu first because it'll be more useful to you earlier on.

As I read this through, I have a basic question about the SCSI2SD card - let's say I buy one for a Mac SE with a bad floppy drive.

How do I load it up to boot?
It's worth noting that this core problem remains the same regardless of what type of internal scsi mass storage is installed in the system.

If you do not have a floppy diskette drive, or other external scsi mass storage, with which to install software onto the machine, there is no way to do it on that machine, at all.

You either need to connect a good diskette drive, find another method (like zip/mo/syquest/bernoulli etc), or use a machine with a good machine to put an OS configured for your machine onto the disk.

In this respect, if you have multiple machines with failed floppy drives, no source of working diskette drives or skill to repair them, and no other infrastructure (say, a working machine with a working floppy diskette or that can use two hard disks) then the FloppyEmu becomes extremely important to have on hand.

a Mac SE with a bad floppy drive.

Double quotes, but I want to call out this specifically for a moment.

In general, up through some of the later Classic series, the SE/30, and the Color Classic, if you have a compact mac, there's a good chance you are using it for system 6.

Perhaps this is presumptuous of me, but in most situations, I can easily imagine a machine like my Quadra 840av without a diskette drive. In fact, I kind of want a blank bezel to put in that spot.

However: It's a little difficult for me to imagine a Compact Mac without one. Perhaps like a Classic or something with 4 megs of RAM, booting 7 from a disk and using networking, but in general it feels like a big part of that particular experience is floppy diskettes, even if you're emulating them.

Perhaps this is a bad or limited take. I do, after all, use a floppy-less IIgs booted off of flash-based internal storage. If I had a compact Mac, I would almost certainly use it that way too, so it's really just a matter of how you like to run things.

It's the CF AztecMonster..
Thank you for the clarification!

It would be worth referring to it by its actual name. SCSI2CF or "cf-based scsi2sd" is both 1) a technically accurate description of what it is 2) brings no or almost no results in search engines, making it difficult to find out what you mean.

The CF AztecMonster is great, and it's not super surprising that the CF works in an IDE/CF adapter, because it's just a volume on a disk. With the SCSI2SD (and by implication this is how a SCSI2CF would work, which is why I'm keen on seeing them represented accurately) you can emulate an arbitrary number of SCSI IDs and LUNs (if I remember correctly) to split the card however it's needed. SCSI2SD is also often cited as being the best solution for very specific situations where devices need to be configured differently from a normal hard disk. I don't know off hand how the AztecMonster would handle, say, being installed in a VAX.

Macs though, are generally simple enough that if you can afford one, it's probably worth going for the AztecMonster.

 
And I found out from Manabu (the maker) the AztecMonster is not available on ebay but available direct at: http://www.artmix.com/CF_AztecMonster.html

His shipping has always been super fast from Japan when I've ordered before!!!

The page is in Japanese yes but scroll to the bottom where you can order via Paypal!

 
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Very nice, not as much as I thought, and definitely worth looking at for some higher end systems. It is still faster than the SCSI2SD, but that is catching up.

One thought: I was actually just on the SCSI2SD page and I see the v6 has some compelling features. Among them is the ability to view/manipulate the data using modern computers. I don't know how this works, but it could be worth looking and it could work well for transferring data to/from a vintage SCSI-using Mac and a vintage USB-having Mac.

 
I'm guessing that either the CF or the SD converters will be faster than an actual SCSI - is that a correct assumption?

v6 of the SD - why would someone buy that over the v5? 

And looking at the Mac ROM-inator, it looks like I might be able to use it for storage on the SE/30, since I don't expect to need a lot of MBs for applications - 8MB might be enough. If I install one of these, then hook up an Iomega ZIP drive, I could move files over that way. But now I'm wondering - would the installed System 7.1 recognize a ZIP drive? or would I still need a functioning floppy drive to install the driver? I guess I'd still need a storage medium like SCSI2SD to save files.

My concern is that someday the floppy drive will stop functioning altogether. As it is, it works but needs encouragement (need to put a disk in multiple times before it reads). But eventually the floppy drive will die.

 
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