Datadesk Mac-101E Keyboard

[Mac128]

Anybody have any experience with this keyboard?

http://www.datadesktech.com/desktop_mac101e.html

Or others that had this functionality?

I'm curious how it is able to use both the ADB and Mac Plus interface ... does it first translate the signals for the Mac Plus and the like the prototype adapters I've seen for the Cassie, convert that signal to ADB?

http://www.applefritter.com/node/314

http://www.applefritter.com/node/313

http://www.applefritter.com/node/294

Or does it use some other method?

 

[Charlieman]

I used a DataDesk 101 on a Plus at work in the 1980s. It was not the same model as the one mentioned. It had the 128K keyboard connector only but was a full size keyboard with function keys. I *think* it was less bulky than the one in the link.

The keyboard shipped with some macro software (possibly Tempo?) which didn't work with System 6. Nor did MacroMaker in System 6 work with the keyboard. QuicKeys, however, was brilliant. I also managed to get some VT keyboard mapping to work in VersaTerm for Vax usage.

Somewhere in the stack of junk, I have a Dell keyboard that provides dual XT/AT functionality. It is quite a nice keyboard (the C key switch needs cleaning, which drives you insane when using DOS) but a manual switch needs to be moved to enable XT or AT functionality. I daresay that the DataDesk 101E requires the same.

If I spotted a DataDesk 101 for sale, I might be tempted.

 

[Aoresteen]

I also had the Datadesk 101 for the MacPlus. As I recall there was an INIT for it so you could access all of the keys. I did use it with 6.0.8

I wrote a ZBASIC routine that was able to detect every possible keystoke with it.

For the life of me I can't remember what I did with it. I must have gotten rid of it when I moved in 2001 (RATS!)

 

[LCGuy]

Somewhere in the stack of junk, I have a Dell keyboard that provides dual XT/AT functionality. It is quite a nice keyboard (the C key switch needs cleaning, which drives you insane when using DOS) but a manual switch needs to be moved to enable XT or AT functionality. I daresay that the DataDesk 101E requires the same.

A lot of old old (pre-Windows 95 key) PC keyboards have that. IIRC all it does is change the key layout - the signal is the same, but not the layout.

 

[Christopher]

That keyboard looks alot like the iBook keyboards.......

 

[Charlieman]

A lot of old old (pre-Windows 95 key) PC keyboards have that. IIRC all it does is change the key layout - the signal is the same, but not the layout.

The XT and AT keyboard protocols are quite different.

 

[Mac128]

I finally picked up a Mac-101e keyboard for a negligible price. Of course when I got it I promptly took it apart. I'll post pictures of the circuit board at some point. Like most keyboards it is quite simple with what appears to be a custom controller chip and a couple of smaller off-the-shelf ICs that appear to be the same as that used in the Mac 128K-Plus keyboard. It has two ADB ports (one at each end) and an RJ-10 connector.

The most surprising thing was the DIP switch array, which is explained HERE.

Evidently the DIP switch is configured to route the signals to ADB or RJ-10 protocol. Surprisingly it is not easy to change (you have to pry off a cover), so switching back and forth between the two platforms would not be practical. Perhaps I am inferring too much here, but it seems that this happens after the keystrokes have been processed, meaning there should be a way to construct a simple converter to RJ-10 or ADB from any keyboard. Now that I know what the DIP switches do, I'll need to follow the traces to see what they connect to. Obviously any adapter would have to intercept the signal directly on the keyboard before it reaches the external connectors.

Possible issues: Is it possible that either or both Apple ADB & RJ-10 keyboards' keystroke ICs output the appropriate signal protocol rendering interception impossible? Would third party keystroke encoding be dramatically different from Apple's?

Observation: Considering Apple produced the Plus as long as it did the SE, it seems like they should have make the ADB keyboard a hybrid as well, producing one keyboard for both Macs to save money. That way they could have sold the Plus for even less, during the age of "optional" keyboards.

 

[Bunsen]

DIP switch array, which is explained HERE / ADB or RJ-10 protocol. Surprisingly it is not easy to change / so switching back and forth between the two platforms would not be practical.

Replace the DIP switch. Wire the pads from #1, #2, and #3 to a single three-pole* switch, with #1 wired in reverse. Mount the new switch somewhere convenient, where it won't be knocked accidentally (as that sounds like a Bad Thing) - perhaps with a flip cover - and label it ADB/128. Viola.

Solder in some jumper pin headers for the other three switches and stick jumpers on them, as you'll hardly ever want to change them.

* I always get "pole" and "throw" mixed up. Whichever one means it switches three sets of contacts with one toggle/pushbutton

The "inconvenient" placement is probably there to stop lusers who don't read manuals from switching their keyboard protocol while it's live.

Of course when I got it I promptly took it apart. I'll post pictures of the circuit board at some point.

Excellent work, comrade [] ]'> Might I suggest high res scans for the Nubus Mafia?

there should be a way to construct a simple converter to RJ-10 or ADB from any keyboard.

Depends what you mean by "any keyboard". A raw key matrix, sure - PS/2, USB etc would involve first de-coding another protocol then re-coding it to ADB/128. Which is what the kbdbabel project is working on. I suggest you have a look over there, if you haven't already.

any adapter would have to intercept the signal directly on the keyboard

So I take it you *do* mean working from the raw key matrix outwards?

Is it possible that / Apple / keystroke ICs output the appropriate signal protocol rendering interception impossible? / third party keystroke encoding / different from Apple's?

Not quite sure what you mean here. AFAIK, the only IC between the keymatrix and the onboard microcontroller is probably a simple switch-matrix decoder, or even just debounce buffers. Numbers and/or markings from all the ICs you're looking at could help - try Octopart for further info on each.

That way they could have sold the Plus for even less

This is Apple we're talking about here, right? :b&w:

 

[Scott Baret]

The Plus came with a keyboard in the box, unlike its newer and more expandable sister.

Also, don't forget that the Plus had another value model alongside it until September 1987--the 512Ke. At the time it made more sense to still produce the old-style keyboard since they were making two lower-end models that used it (and two higher-end models that used ADB, plus the IIGS).

What always puzzled me was why the IIGS keyboard couldn't have been used as the regular-length option on the SE. Sure, it worked, but was the designing of the Apple Keyboard (the short model most people bought with SEs) really necessary? This could have gone the other way as well if one questions the IIGS keyboard's relevancy (I think this was actually addressed in 1990 when the Apple Keyboard II came out--I seem to remember the last batch of IIGSs shipping with Apple Keyboard IIs).

 

[Mac128]

At the time it made more sense to still produce the old-style keyboard since they were making two lower-end models that used it.

This is supposition, unless you have access to something that details this. Certainly that could have been the case. At some point Apple did do some consolidating by only offering the Plus keyboard with the 512Ke. However, from a marketing perspective, Apple could have eliminated the pre-packaged Plus keyboard, dropped the price and offered the customer a choice of the new hybrid keyboards, ultimately resulting in a higher profit for Apple. Remember Apple was a volume company and despite the enormous profits they were reaping in the late 80s, they continued to strive to shave a penny from a 10-cent part, which would result in a net profit of $10,000 over a million units without changing the price. So eliminating an entire keyboard would have had a substantial result, especially over 3 years (no matter how much profit they were already making on it).

What always puzzled me was why the IIGS keyboard couldn't have been used as the regular-length option on the SE. Sure, it worked, but was the designing of the Apple Keyboard (the short model most people bought with SEs) really necessary?

Paul Kunkel's Apple Design makes that quite clear. Hartmut Esslinger pushed for the IIGS keyboard design, originally without the thin border surrounding the keys like the recent white Apple Keyboard. However, Apple made him add the border because they felt the keyboard looked flimsy. When the SE & II came out, they wanted keyboards that looked sturdy and business oriented (the IIGS was a "hobbiest computer" for gaming, so it didn't matter). Esslinger was on the way out at that point so they redesigned the keyboards, which also helped them boost profit – who would pay a premium for something Apple felt looked flimsy? A whole different mindset then than today – they were competing with the typewriter and the computer had still not replaced it for a majority of businesses. I don't think the IIGS keyboard was ever officially sold separately, which is too bad because it looks best with the SE. Again, if Apple did replace it with the Apple Standard Keyboard, there is evidence of consolidation to maximize profit.