Copland D7E1

[The Macster]

Hi all,

Just wondered if any of you have had any more success running Copland D7E1 (the earlier of the two available builds of it) than I have - am just curious if it's at all possible to run this build (presumably people at Apple were able to, not sure what they had that we don't though), I thought I'd ask here as if anyone outside Apple knows then it's likely that someone here will and it seems there is very little information around about getting this one running.

I've been trying to run it on a Power Mac 6100/60 and have only got as far as the below, it gets stuck at "Welcome to NuKernel" even with a debugger machine connected (which I have read is required to have any chance of running D7E1, though for me it got stuck at the same point with or without one). On the debugger when NuKernel starts on the 6100 it seems to connect ok as it says "Getting process information" and they appear but shortly afterwards the "Access Fault" message comes up and Copland appears to be frozen. I've already tried with the 6100 as stock as possible ie just the built-in 8 MB memory (as well as its full 40 MB), no cards etc, and the NonScarecrowVolume has Mac OS 7.1.2 on it (it didn't seem to work at all when I first tried with it holding 7.5.5 and with Caps Lock down so it seems that it prefers 7.1.2 or maybe only works with 7.1.2 or pure 7.5 with no 7.5.x updates, which is also what the basic system that comes with it alongside D7E1 on the ScarecrowVolume also)

Have any of you got any further than this, or know how to?

Also does anyone know what build of Copland is the one shown here - http://lowendmac.com/orchard/05/1108.html ? Compared to D11E4 this one seems to have a lot more features, was D7E1 actually more fully-featured despite being earlier, or is this an "unleaked" one?

This is where I got to:

Copland D11E4 (the other, later, build) seemed fairly straightforward to run on this machine on the other hand, and runs without a debugger connected - it was a bit more stable than I was expecting actually, though it is somewhat slow and seems to crash if I try to run a Mac OS application or open the "Themes" folder in Finder. Here's a few screens in case anyone who hasn't run it before is interested (it is a very stripped-down OS with very few control panels, applications etc, the "Finder Preferences" window is about the only set of options there is - even "About this Mac" is greyed out as you can see):

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, just wanted to see if anyone here knew much more about D7E1 as I can't think of anything else to try with getting it to run! (I've read the other, older, topic about D11E4 but no progress seemed to have been made there on D7E1)

 

[protocol7]

That Access Fault debugger error has me thinking it may still be a RAM issue. 40mb may be too much and 8 is probably too small. Can you get it to 32? I have seen it running on other machines so I know it is possible to get it going. Having said that, when I had too much RAM in mine it stalled much earlier in the boot. Did you remember to copy over the System file into your 7.1.2 boot folder?

I'd love to give it a try but until I can find something like a 6100 I can't do anything. Also still hoping for a copy of D9 (or any others).

As for those pictures, I think I recognise them now. They're from the "Mac OS 8 Unleashed" CDROM (note the "exit" button on the bottom left of each pic). They may be mockups or they could be from earlier functioning builds. I did get the feeling that D11E4 lacked a lot of stuff that was in earlier builds (Appearance control panel and Find for a start) so while it may be the latest one available, it's not the best.

 

[The Macster]

Hmm, unfortunately I only have the two 16 MB modules that go in it so I can only try with the stock 8 MB or th full 40, which have both given identical results. Has anyone else here tried with something in between the two on an x100-series machine and got any further?

I did copy over the ModernOS Enabler, folder and .pef file as the readme file that came with the copy I have advised - they say only to replace the system file if you're running 7.5, not 7.1.2, so I didn't do that.

 

[protocol7]

Can you put in one of those 16mb sticks and run it with 24mb RAM? Also you may have more success with bootstrapping it from 7.5 (and replacing the System file) rather than 7.1. This is going by LCGuy's posting here.

Also that CD was "Mac OS 8 Revealed" not Unleashed.

 

[Dog Cow]

Try reading or asking this guy.

 

[The Macster]

I'm pretty sure the modules have to be paired in the 6100 so I don't think I can try with just one of them unfortunately - anyone else got an x100 series machine with an amount of memory in between 8 and 40 MB that's given D7E1 a try?

Most of the information in the two links seems to be about D11E4 though, which does work fine on this machine, there seems to be very little about D7E1 - seems maybe no-one has been able to run it then (I was sure someone here would have run it!) Thanks for the link though, some interesting reading about Copland generally!

Might be worth giving 7.5 a try I guess (it didn't seem to work at all with 7.5.3 but maybe it would like 7.5.0) if I've got it somewhere, though the system that is on the ScarecrowVolume is 7.1.2 (not sure what it uses this for as it boots first of all from whatever you have put on the NonScarecrowVolume) which would suggest it should be at home with 7.1.2 as well.

The amount of memory does seem about the most likely thing if "Access Fault" is something that typically refers to memory issues then...

 

[protocol7]

I think access fault can be a few things. The debugger should give more information. "No kernel stacks" was what got me thinking about memory when I couldn't get D11E4 to boot. I have pictures somewhere of D7E1 running that I found online so it should be possible and a stock 6100 should be ideal.

 

[switch998]

I don't mean to sidetrack anything here, but I have a few technical pages on copland (that I guess would be useful). The technical overview is quite lengthy, it spans 177 pages and it also has some screenshots of the OS (or a mockup maybe). There's a 19 page intro document in there, that I'm sure everyone has seen by now. And of course, who could forget the 166 page document overviewing the microkernel? There's also a few release notes, install guides, and some other documents (That I think includes a list of compatible hardware).

There's a few shots of copland builds. So far I've seen SunNfun D7E1 and Spaz D11E4, the D7E1 screenshot is of the "access fault" screen.

Included in the file are the screenshots, documents, a CD-ROM extension, and a copy of resedit 3.0d1.

---- http://www.mediafire.com/?m6u9slnikkh0gss

 

[The Macster]

Hey thanks for those! Wow, there is one screenshot showing D7E1 actually running in there, so it is possible! :-O It looks like there's no Apple menu too, or at least no icon for it - weird.

I have pictures somewhere of D7E1 running that I found online so it should be possible and a stock 6100 should be ideal.

Would you mind posting those if you have any that weren't in the link posted above? Would be interesting to see more of D7E1 - I know the 6100 should be ideal as they were surely running on similar machines at Apple at the time, it makes no sense to me why it won't work!

 

[protocol7]

Would you mind posting those if you have any that weren't in the link posted above? Would be interesting to see more of D7E1 - I know the 6100 should be ideal as they were surely running on similar machines at Apple at the time, it makes no sense to me why it won't work!

I had a look at the archive switch998 posted and the pics I'm thinking of are in there (Copland D7E1.gif in particular).

 

[beachycove]

Just stumbled across this screenshot of ClarisWorks running in Copland.

Would this have been a special demo build of CW, do you suppose? Also, were windows meant to be customizable like this in any running application running under the Copland OS?

 

[protocol7]

The themes worked just as they did in 8.2+ so any running app would be skinned like that. Here's the same Hi-Tech theme in 8.6 with SimpleText open.

In my D11E4 pics I enabled the Gizmo theme for some of the later shots.

As for the CW build, it may have just been a regular build running on a more stable internal build of Copland. Or it could be a mockup (as that pic is taken from the Mac OS 8 Revealed CD). It's hard to know just how usable Copland actually was as we only have two unstable builds.

 

[protocol7]

When the Access Fault box pops up in the debugger are you clicking OK and hitting the "play" button in that window above it? That will allow the boot to continue to the next fault. It's worth reading the debugger section in the how to install D11E4 document. You can also tell the debugger to not stop at certain faults so it won't "bug" you as much. I don't know anything about debugging, I just hit random things whenever there was a fault and it usually moved a little further. You can get the debugger manual here.

Also, I just remembered that neither D7E1 nor D11E4 has that Hi-Tech theme.

 

[switch998]

I'm trying to set this up on sheepshaver, but disk setup isn't recognizing any volumes, and ideas? Or is there another utility I can use?

 

[protocol7]

It won't work on any emulator. It barely works on real Macs as it is

One of the problems with Sheepshaver is that it doesn't actually emulate hard disks. They're seen by the emulated Mac OS as floppy drives. Run Disk First Aid and you'll see.

 

[switch998]

I figured that, since disk utility scans the SCSI bus. Now, if I import a blank disk image that is already formatted for copland I can install to it. The only problem is that the copland disk image i have isn't large enough to perform an install. If someone could give me a blank formatted image for copland, I would appreciate it.

And, I've seen copland on sheepshaver before. I think there is a youtube video of it.

And if anyone is reading this that lives at the jersey shore, now is a great time to throw away some old mac systems (preferably 2 powermac 9500s with monitor, keyboard and mice).

 

[protocol7]

The furthest you'll probably get with D7E1 is the first pic that The Macster posted (or possibly the next screen which IIRC is "Preening Disks"). This is as it's just being bootstrapped from 7.5. I have distant memories of getting that far with Basilisk II years ago (as you don't actually install D7E1, just copy files and folders). Both Basilisk II and Sheepshaver are just Mac OS emulators, they lack complete Mac hardware emulation. MESS is what you need for that, but progress there has always been very, very slow. You won't be able to boot into a running Copland system on either. If that was possible it would have been done by now.

 

[The Macster]

When the Access Fault box pops up in the debugger are you clicking OK and hitting the "play" button in that window above it? That will allow the boot to continue to the next fault. It's worth reading the debugger section in the how to install D11E4 document. You can also tell the debugger to not stop at certain faults so it won't "bug" you as much. I don't know anything about debugging, I just hit random things whenever there was a fault and it usually moved a little further. You can get the debugger manual here.

Thanks - I gave it another try just now with your instructions but as soon as the Access Fault message appears I click OK and then the mouse cursor changes to a symbol with two arrows pointing towards each other and the debugger appears frozen so I can't click on the button that you mention, then after a while it says that the connection with the "nub" has been lost due to a communications error (too many retries) and that I should re-execute the target application

I'm starting the debugger application, then starting up the 6100, it just sits there until the "Welcome to NuKernel" appears and then it says "Getting process information" and it shows the kernel as being executed, the error seeming to be in that as it then changes to "Stopped" afterwards - does it sound like I'm going about it in the right way? I tried unticking "Set stop for Debugger()/DebugStr() default" and "Stop on code loads for existing processes" in the "General Preferences" section of the debugger.

 

[protocol7]

I don't know what could be causing that communications error. There's an option in the debugger that you can enable for slow debug machines, but I didn't have it enabled and I was running the debugger fine on a Classic II. I guess you could try it anyway.

Otherwise I think that's much the same as what I did. Of course, it was easier with D11E4 as it didn't need the debugger to run, whereas D7E1 does.