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TAM - why USB/FW card vs. HDD interface for performance increase?

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
I've not seen this discussed, I'm curious about the TAM community's obsession with USB/FireWire cards. The IDE/ATA1 performance bottleneck has been my main concern since the 6360/G3 L2 was my production machine. It was hacked to house a full length PCI VidCard to drive my TPD and conversion to 6400 riser was next on my hack list. I viewed USB/FW on Sonnet's TEMPOtrio as very welcome, but unnecessary features added to Sonnet's stock Tempo ATA-Whatever HDD interface cards. As we have determined, the trios' incompatibility with the Gazelle boards I've been collecting, I'll be opting for Tempo/133 over USN/FW. I'm curious to see if ATA-66 or ATA-133 on Alchemy might trump Gazelle's (TAM's) 25% bus bump benefit play.

When the TAM was new, FW400 was in use for Video and such, but AFAIK it's not suitable for Hard Disk I/O increases for Gazelle. and replacing TAM's 3400 bits with a far superior USB KBD/Mouse combo would be wiping Ive's lipstick off the pig.

While replacing the HDD with Compact Flash/Adapter's seek time reductions make the TAM zippier, Gazelle remains hamstrung by Apple's rudimentary (and flawed) implementation of IDE/ATA1. An ATA66/133 interface card cabled to a PATA SSD (or even CF) should shoehorn within the TAM's confines? Throuput increases aside, burst mode increases should take CF/SSD benefits to new levels of TAM zippiness, no?

Anyhoo, links to such discussion would be most welcome, especially if someone has taken this route and benchmarked performance. Has anyone here made the switch?

 
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Byrd

Well-known member
It's all about functionality in the TAM, not trying to make it faster.  Simply put the 2.5" HD is a PITA to remove and gain access to, and the ATA controller picky about what drives it likes to work with.  I've trialled several devices in mine and settled on an 80GB 2.5" 5400RPM spinner as MSATA SSD, mechanical 100GB, 120GB 7200 2.5" drives do not work and cause freezing issues.

So - you put in this big HD, then find USB 1.1 painfully slow to transfer data to (and unreliable - often the bus times out) = firewire is the next and only other option :D   I'd guess many load up their TAM HDs with lots MP3s to take advantage of the sound.

JB

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Interesting, I've got a USB/FW external case I'll have to check out on the 6500 at some point, but trying to get the Tempo/133 running on the TAM equivalent is a higher priority playtime-wise for me. The FW route for backup of the QS is cool, but not sure how it would be for a boot drive.

With the fuss I've seen about finding the Crescendo G3 L2 500/1MB cards rather than the more pedestrian 400MHz variety I thought speed was an issue on the TAM scene. Have any folks gone to CF/SD cards in the TAM or is that a PITA as well?

You've all but infected me with the TAM bug with that question about a PCMCIA adapter for the one PCI slot in your TAM. Luckily I'm more than satisfied to muck about with expendable Gossamer boards on the bench. [;)]

Finally realized why USB is a big deal, with a USB KVM you can leave that gussied up 3400 KBD tucked under the TAM where it belongs, run your real computer and the purty thang (not my thing) sitting untouched for playing those MP3s.

 

trag

Well-known member
It's all about functionality in the TAM, not trying to make it faster.  Simply put the 2.5" HD is a PITA to remove and gain access to, and the ATA controller picky about what drives it likes to work with.  I've trialled several devices in mine and settled on an 80GB 2.5" 5400RPM spinner as MSATA SSD, mechanical 100GB, 120GB 7200 2.5" drives do not work and cause freezing issues.


I wonder if the issues with SSDs has any similarities to what this fellow found in the PB150:

http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/hardware/pb150/

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Zippier by about how much?

I'm in the process of posting pics of real cards in the thread ATM. Maybe that'll spark some interest?

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
USB 1.1 painfully slow to transfer data to (and unreliable - often the bus times out)


I'm interested in this. I have a G4 I was using a 2TB USB drive on and I didn't have any trouble with copying a ~fair~ (probably ~10 gigs at that point) amount of data to. I haven't tried anything to the extent of copying a full 40gb disk to it, or tried it in OS X, where I actually imagine it would be that much better.

My long-term idea was to pop a few SATA Cards in the G4 and then do either fast backups onto second internal disks and slow duplications onto the USB device, or get a firewire/SATA disk dock. If it's that bad, maybe the best route forward for that setup is network backup onto a netatalk/windows'03 server.

The other thing with the TAM specifically is is it possible to route, say, a SATA or IDE or SCSI cable from a PCI card to the hard disk mount? The most practical options would be firewire or an extenral SCSI drive if you *needed* a faster boot device.

But ultimately, as I've said of the 6360, it sounds like if you specifically need all these add-ons to make everything faster, the TAM isn't "for you" - a 7300 or 8600 will happily house three PCI cards and a has an open interior and space for cable routing, or any G4 would be all of that and faster, too.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
One other thought: On some of these machines, really huge uplifts in disk performance made possible by installing literally brand new SATA SSDs in machines from 20+ years ago highlight just how much disk storage has been slowing us down and for how long, and theyr'e very meaningful and worthwhile upgrades in systems you can add almost ten years' worth of upgrades to. It makes perfect sense to put a big SATA SSD in a Power Mac 9500 or 9600 you're running a high end G4, a big GPU, and Mac OS X 10.x on. Something a little more modest is probably "fine" for the TAM. A TAM isn't really a machine you get for a great time in Photoshop,

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
The other thing with the TAM specifically is is it possible to route, say, a SATA or IDE or SCSI cable from a PCI card to the hard disk mount? The most practical options would be firewire or an extenral SCSI drive if you *needed* a faster boot device.
That thing is an Origami mad-house of ribbon cables. Can't imagine a level or two of the thinner Ultra-ATA cabling would be a problem. Transitioning from full size to laptop cable would be the sticking point from where I sit. I wonder if there's a replacement Laptop cable that would get you into the card bay where there's some wriggle room for adaptation?

As for the 6360, it's playing with old toys in a handicap league for me. Nobody NEEDS to make these things run any faster, it's just fun to try stuff out to see what happens. I've got lots of stuff newer that I haven't messed much with yet. At one point I was looking forward to setting up a B&W G3 board I picked up, but it's Rev. A and I moved toward BG3 as a bridge machine.

Alchemy/Gazelle machines were at the tipping point for consumer PowerMacs. One foot in the future and two left ones stuck in the past. TAMs all that and a 3400 too.

1996- Alchemy did it as right as Apple ever got it for consumer PPC Macs to that point.

1997 - Gossamer got faster/buggier and the TAM was born.

1998 - Beige was boring and yet so much better. Was there even a consumer Mac that year?

1999 - Bondi beachead established and the iInvasion put an end to puttering about in the bowels of consumer Macs.  :p

 
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Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Just peeked at open back TAM pics and it looks like the standard IDE cable goes to the drive caddy? So the 2.5" adaptation is done by the caddy? If so, no problem that I can see other than making up the right length of 80 line alternate ground type cable.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
I guess my question about cabling was less about what was there and more about whether or not there is an available physical path from the card area to the disk bay. Given that that isn't being talked about at all, I'm guessing there must be.

Regarding the timeline: None of that makes sense. When you write Gossamer (which is the name of the Beige G3's platform) do you mean Alchemy or Gazelle? Are Alchemy and Gazelle actually different or are machine codenames being conflated with architecture codenames?

Anyway, the Power Mac 6500 was sold a little after all the other non G3 Macs had been discontinued, co-inciding with the introduction of the (edu-only, 5500 replacement) Power Macintosh G3 AIO, rather than with the iMac.

However, for the Power Macintosh G3 (all Beige G3s are Gossamers) Apple's trick was to drop the price by a thousand dollars in 1998, so by the time the 6500 was gone, a beige G3 233 (later 266) desktop cost basically what the 6500 had cost anyway.

Regarding discouraging "tinkering" - Macs were never really "for" tinkerers or meant as tinkering machines, but the iMac G3 didn't prevent you from cracking the case (open, or otherwise) and installing more RAM and replacing a fair amount of the system on your own. It was annoying and difficult to do, but I'm pretty sure doing so was in the manual and it didn't void your warranty.

It wasn't really until 2005 or so when the second "iSight" generation of the Power Macintosh G5 was introduced that iMacs became so hard to pull apart. That was when the RAM moved to a hatch at the bottom (where it stayed until IIRC the iMacs got thinner in 2013, at which point, the 27-incher and 21 incher became different as to RAM accessibility.)

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
That was an oopsie, I meant gazelle, but got confuzzled..

Timeline is spot on for release dates from LEM..

G3 AIO was not a consumer Mac, it was only sold to schools.

Yes, there is room and a clear pathway as far as I can tell from mcd's teardown pics.

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Was tired, misread the AIO thing you covered and missed one:

Alchemy = 6360/6400/5400 - Apple brings PCI to the PPC "Performas"ending the NuBus Architecture for consumer tier.

Gazelle = 6500/5500/TAM - System bus upclock (CPUs as well) and insurmountable buggage tweaks to Alchemy

Gossamer = Beige (boring, but revolutionary) and it looks like no new consumer Macs for that generation per your comments?

Bondi iMAC = end of consumer "upgrade drawer" and Color CRT zappage added to deter consumer upgrades (tinkering)

I've always seen the Alchemy/Gazelle nomenclature for those two "architectures." Is there any other name for them? Drawer w/CS2 and TV/AV slots would be the defining factor. PCI architecture would be the family with those two peculiar species lumped in from my point of view.

Opening up an iMac seems like a dealer/hacker installation only move, locking it up tighter-n-a-Compact.  Did Apple ever condone (drop threats of voiding warranty) for those machines? CC doesn't count, drawer rules it out.

Interesting you mentioned the G3 AIO. I've never seen one or examined the exploded diagram closely. Apple retained the drawer upgrade thing because slots and field upgrades really do count, even if they're never used. Purchasing departments were accustomed to  the perceived value of such, probably until the commoditization of desktop computers, spearheaded by iMac and eMac.

I'm guessing the Molar Mac motherboard remained stock beige with a ribbon cable hydra sprouting from the drawer side of the connector? I'll have to take a peek.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
I would make the argument the Power Macintosh G3 itself also stood in as a reasonable "consumer" machine - despite not being available in a Performa bundle (which, really, the Power Macintosh 6500 was in everything except name.) Especially in early 1998 once the 6500 was killed and Apple had dropped the base price of the desktop system to $1299, making it a pretty reasonable "slot in where your old Mac sat and install your old stuff" upgrade to almost any older system, or pretty basic office system.

The 6500 itself sold for a few more months after the launch of the Power Macintosh G3, but Apple had known for years that consumers didn't really want another rehash of a rehash-rehash, and even if you drop a G3 CPU onto a 6500's board, or even if you design a G3 motherboard for that enclosure -- everyone can smell the 1993 from a mile away. (This is directly stated, more or less, in Apple's annual reports dating as far back as 1996.)

Whether or not Apple condoned opening the iMac G3 - it was widely done. 

So, yeah, technically there were a few months where Apple wasn't building a consumer machine. Although, you were around back then. 6500, 6400, 4400, 6360, and even regular 6300 and 6200 variants were still on sale in spades. (*Another problem Apple acknowledged openly in its annual reports.) So if you wanted a performa bundle for those few months, it wasn't hard to get it, although why you would, given how early in the year Apple teased the iMac G3, I don't know.

I don't often refer to Macs by their architecture name or codename, I often find it more confusing than just saying the well-known model names, or in some cases well known identifiers (esp. Power Macintosh G4s). So, every single time I see Alchemy and Gazelle, I have to search online to recall what those are, but I already know what's involved in a 6400 or 6500 and I remember most of the stock specs of most of the variations off hand for those two models in particular too. (At least at the moment, much of that's been via digging through old MacWorlds.)

In most iMac G3s, the CRT is sufficiently far enough away from the other meaningfully important parts that you can work in them without fear of getting zapped, although in the slot-loaders, there are a few pesky places screws can get to. Those systems changed the system up a little bit so the RAM and AirPort slots are available directly under a hatch you can open with a coin or the blunt end of a house key. (However, getting to PRAM/ODD/HDD requires a few more screws to be taken out.) I had an original iMac G3 and pulled it apart a little after I got it, IDK, probably when I was eleven or twelve, to put some more RAM in it, and didn't have any real trouble. It was annoying but it wasn't impossible or unsafe.

And, yeah, the Beige G3 AIO board is almost identical to the minitower/desktop boards. I don't think it slid into a cable harness, there was a big nest inside, but I haven't personally had one and it's been a few years since I gandered inside one.

Regarding the timeline:

1997: Gossamer is the beige G3 motherboard.
1998: The Beige G3 is speedbumped, still on the Gossamer board.
1998: The iMac was released in 1998, not 1999.
1999: The iMac was speed-bumped and released in colors, the Beige G3 was replaced by the blue-and-white "Yosemite" G3.

I saw a mention of buggy -- I couldn't speak that much to whether the 6500 is buggy, but I had a 6500/250 for a while and it didn't seem that bad? That was around fifteen years ago at this point, however. Was it that the 6360/6400 were buggy and the 6500 fixed that? Or, does "bugs" mean something else here?

Regarding the slots in the G3 AIO: - Schools were used to the 4/5/6 series Macs, most of which didn't have all that much expansion. I'd put money the only reason the G3 AIO exists the way it did was because Apple wanted to have their product line and supply chain be as simple as possible. Tim Cook joined Apple in 1998 and his background was in logistics and supply chain management. I'd be zero surprised if it was at his insistence Apple would build only one motherboard for all three G3 machines, and also that the iMac G3 and PowerBook G3 would be electrically so similar. (And, the Walstreet is basically a miniaturized beige G3, platform-wise.) Apple was headed that direction anyway, however.

Something closer in shape to the iMac or eMac is what education has always wanted - something short, so kids can see over it. If you've ever been in a K-12 school computer lab, you know visibility is a big issue, and many of them are both task/work spaces and instructional spaces.

In Education, the only people who ever installed cards in years-old Macs as a way to retain or add value has been people who had  a home page and were extremely passionate about computers from the outset. I'm going to hazard a guess that there were fewer than 50 total such educators who were so technically inclined as to be doing things like rebuilding machines on their own.

Strictly speaking, I'm not sure the 6000 or 5000 series was ever what educators really wanted, either. It just happens to be that Ethernet cards were easy to add and those systems were flexible in that they could be used for general purpose stuff or multimedia without breaking the bank, relative to having to buy a bunch of 4400s or 7200s as inexpensive general purpose lab machines, and then a few really expensive 8500s for audio/video work, presuming there's ever been a really compelling use case for that specifically, outside of multimedia production classes specifically.  (i.e. asking a room full of students to make a video book report has probably never gone well.)

.. Anyway. A lot of that really has to do with the fact that education has relatively unique physical needs that happen to often match up okay with what consumers need, but they're pretty unique markets, still.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Education thought: Many of the Macs that have been most popular in education were popular not because they were actually good computers for the needs of educators and learners, but because they were inexpensive, and easily buyable in bulk. (I've got the packing list from a bulk pack LC520 for example.

The eMac happened to hit upon a really good combination at the time of inexpensive, capable, well-built (minus the capacitor issues plaguing the one lat generation model) and a pretty good (heavy, but not too big and unweildy, and shorter than many of its predecessors) form factor, along with (for the first few generations) running OS 9 directly, which would be important for any school who saw the tides changing and wanted to buy a last group of systems that could run a fairly large back-catalog of software for Classic Mac OS.

I've seen eMacs hanging on in K-12 as recently as just about five years ago.

 
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