Question about original Macintosh system disks

[eisnerguy1]

I was told by someone that this forum was the best place to ask this. I apologize if a topic like this is frowned upon but, I had a small request. Since it's unlikely that I'll actually ever own one, I'm trying to create an accurate (launch) Mac 128K emulated experience (using Mini vMac). I've built custom versions of Mini vMac to accurately emulate the original Macintosh.

I've already found the Mac128K rom files & mp3 versions of the "Guided Tour" cassette tapes. I was wondering if anyone might have virtual disk images (.dsk/.img/.toast/.dmg) of the original disks? The reason that I'm asking is that I found some disk images online (3 out of the original 6 disk images) but, they seem to be missing files & don't appear to be the original apps/versions.

*A Guided Tour of Macintosh (System .85)

*MacWrite•MacPaint: A guided tour

*System Disk (1.0/v.97)

*System And MacWrite•MacPaint

*MacPaint

*MacWrite: Disk Based

(According to http://homepage.mac.com/chinesemac/earlymacs/#128_bundles , the original Mac only came with "System DIsk", "A Guided Tour of Macintosh", "MacWrite•MacPaint" & "MacWrite•MacPaint: A Guided Tour")

Again, I apologize if a topic like this is frowned upon but, this forum seemed like the best place to ask. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Paralel]

Well, since copies of the original Mac discs were given away for free, I guess this doesn't break the "No asking for copyrighted material" rule.

 

[basalgangster]

I have the ones that came with the 512k Mac. I think they are probably the same. Good enuf?

 

[Mac128]

I'll save you a bit of trouble with the Guided Tour emulation. But it would be cool to see something interactive, via Flash, or to be more Apple politically correct, HTML5. How do you plan to implement this emulation, or is it just for yourself?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Mac128DOTcom

You can also check out this rough test site done in basic HTML gif animation of the original 128K system navigation experience. I discovered rather quickly, that while approximating the same speed as an original 128K, this method is simply not fast enough on the web to be as seamless an experience and so abandoned it.

As for the link to Eric Rasmussen's site, it is the most thoroughly researched and accurate information regarding the early Macs. You can rest assured, those items are exactly what was packaged with the original Mac.

Disk Based MacWrite did not come out until later, when everyone complained about how limited it was on a 128K. System and MW/MP as well as MW on a single disk are from later editions, after MacWrite had grown in size.

Also, why are you using the red 128K logo? That was not the original 128K Mac, but rather the Second generation 128K, which did not come out until late 1984, with a completely different logic board.

 

[eisnerguy1]

I have the ones that came with the 512k Mac. I think they are probably the same. Good enuf?

Thank you but, I'm trying to track down the disks that came with the original Macintosh. Thanks for offering though

I'll save you a bit of trouble with the Guided Tour emulation. But it would be cool to see something interactive, via Flash, or to be more Apple politically correct, HTML5. How do you plan to implement this emulation, or is it just for yourself?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Mac128DOTcom

You can also check out this rough test site done in basic HTML gif animation of the original 128K system navigation experience. I discovered rather quickly, that while approximating the same speed as an original 128K, this method is simply not fast enough on the web to be as seamless an experience and so abandoned it.

As for the link to Eric Rasmussen's site, it is the most thoroughly researched and accurate information regarding the early Macs. You can rest assured, those items are exactly what was packaged with the original Mac.

Disk Based MacWrite did not come out until later, when everyone complained about how limited it was on a 128K. System and MW/MP as well as MW on a single disk are from later editions, after MacWrite had grown in size.

Also, why are you using the red 128K logo? That was not the original 128K Mac, but rather the Second generation 128K, which did not come out until late 1984, with a completely different logic board.

For now, it's just for myself. Once I compile all of the needed files, I might share my "collection" with people. My goal was to preserve the original Macintosh (albeit in emulated form). Oh & that logo? I was just seeing how that looked. Yeah, I know it refers to the 2nd Gen 128K. Oh & using the 128K in the name of the custom build of Mini vMac helps to differentiate it from other builds. Might whip up a website of my findings/process of locating stuff.

edit: Woah, might've just hit the jackpot! 8-o :O

Someone just sent me the 4 original disk images. First in 400K format (MFS) & then in 800K (HFS). The 400K disks won't mount in Snow Leopard but, the "System Disk" & "Guided Tour of Macintosh" 800K disks do (the other 2 don't). When I try using the System Disks to boot Mini vMac 128K, I get the flashing disk/question mark/ X logos. When I use a known bootable disk first, and then mount the images in Mini vMac, I get the error message that "It's not a Macintosh Disk" and do I want to initialize it. Is it ok if I send them to someone & see if they can salvage/make them mountable (bootable) them somehow?

Oh & if anyone is wondering, here are the build options that I'm using for my custom Mini vMac build:

-n "Mini vMac 128K"

-m 128K

-mem 128K

-t imch

-speed 1

-sony-tag 1

http://minivmac.sourceforge.net/doc/options.html

http://minivmac.sourceforge.net/doc/build.html

 

[Mac128]

HFS disks will not boot a 128K or 512K, nor can they be read on one without the HD20 INIT which is not supported in Mini vMac. So that message is to be expected.

Do you get the same message with the 400K MFS images?

Also why would you try to open these old disk images under Snow Leopard? What use would 25 year old files be under OS X? Also, it is a known limitation that MFS is not supported and HFS is read only. The act of opening them can introduce corruption that will prevent Mini vMac from reading them. Go back to your original untouched copies and try those.

Try using the Mac Plus build to manage your files as there are many problems the 128K system can introduce when trying to manage vintage files if you don't know what you're doing (and even then). You may have to transfer the files to a new blank disk image.

 

[bsd107]

I have the ones that came with the 512k Mac. I think they are probably the same. Good enuf?

I have a similar but slightly different question.

I recently purchased a used Macintosh 512k (1984 model, not the 512Ke enhanced model), to allow me to live the dream that I could not when I was a kid when the original Mac was released. (I could not afford a Mac then, of course, and got an Apple IIe instead to match what was being used in my school.)

I've been trying to find the original 128k Mac Guided Tour diskette to use on this actual (not emulated) "Fat Mac".

I bought a pile of diskettes off of eBay, one of which is the Apple Macintosh Guided Tour. It's an original diskette, complete with the original label. On the back is a 1984 copyright, but this does not guarantee that it is acutally a 1984 version. Since the diskette is readable in my 512k Mac, I assume that it is a 400k diskette (not a 800k).

When I boot from the Guided Tour diskette, it loads to the Guided Tour menu, but if I select most of the menu options (i.e. the big buttons that let you pick which part of the tour you want to run), I get an error saying that the program cannot be continued as "some of the required files are missing". I can get the very first part of the tour to run - the part which shows you how to move a mouse, but none of the other parts (like the finder tutorial).

If I first boot off a System diskette (with version 1.1g of the Finder), and then insert the Guided Tour diskette, I can run the Maze program, and even get the Guided Tour menu to run, but if I choose one of the tour options here, I actually get a system crash (i.e. the box with the bomb icon).

Any ideas what is wrong with my Guided Tour diskette? I've copied this Guided Tour diskette, and got no errors indicating trouble reading the floppy, so I don't think it is an issue of bad sectors, etc. Could it be that the diskette is intended for the 512Ke's extended ROM, and so is missing some system files that are not in my FatMac ROM? I could not find any way to determine the version of the system on this Guided Tour diskette, which might give me some clues as to what version the Tour is, and why it won't run (or what files are missing).

My whole goal here is that I want to run the original 128k Guided Tour diskette. I'm dying to see the original icons shown in that tour - i.e. the mac icon with the twiggy drive!

Thanks in advance to anyone for your help!

 

[Mac128]

When I boot from the Guided Tour diskette, it loads to the Guided Tour menu, but if I select most of the menu options (i.e. the big buttons that let you pick which part of the tour you want to run), I get an error saying that the program cannot be continued as "some of the required files are missing".

Most likely somebody has moved some files around when playing with the disk, which the tutorial and manual specifically warn not to do for this exact reason. Hopefully they have not trashed them.

How did you copy the disk? The Guided Tour Disk is copy protected, specifically so that they System cannot be used, as it is an unstable beta version. So doing a regular disk copy should not have worked. That is a clue that someone has tampered with the disk as well. Perhaps someone will post a screenshot showing exactly what files should be where, in case you need to recreate folders or rename files. Check the trash. Files may have been moved there as well, but most likely by now they have been deleted.

This post may have the information you need:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=203&start=0

 

[bsd107]

How did you copy the disk? The Guided Tour Disk is copy protected, specifically so that they System cannot be used, as it is an unstable beta version. So doing a regular disk copy should not have worked. That is a clue that someone has tampered with the disk as well.

Booting from a system floppy with Finder 1.1g, I dragged the Guided Tour Disk onto a blank floppy. Finder copied the diskette (warning that it would completely wipe the destination diskette - I assume this means it is doing a full copy) and files with a few swaps required. No errors occured.

I don't know what files to expect on the diskette.

Also, I cannot figure out how to check the system version on the Guided Tour diskette, as if boot from that diskette it goes straight to the Tour (i.e. I can't load the finder).

I checked the pictures of a fully loaded (original box and packaging and everything else) Mac 128k on eBay, and the lable on the Guided Tour diskette shown there looks exactly like the one that I am trying to run on my Fat Mac....

 

[bsd107]

By the way, when I boot from the Guided Tour diskette, I bascially get into an endless loop where I have to manually eject the diskette. Booting from the Guided Tour floppy, the Tour loads automatically, but when I select some of the options, I get the "bomb" system error. No way to tell the system to eject the diskette. I have to power down and use a paper clip to eject the diskette....

Is there a keyboard command that forces a disk eject?

 

[Mac128]

Is there a keyboard command that forces a disk eject?

Nope. Welcome to 1984.

Your disk is correct for any 64K ROM Mac. A 512Ke tour disk would have a 1986 copyright date.

So clicking "Let me Use My Macintosh" doesn't do anything? Most likely as I said someone has renamed the Finder, or trashed some files while playing around with it. Check out the pictures I linked to and see if your MGT desktop looks like those.

 

[mx-v]

Is there a keyboard command that forces a disk eject?

Turning on the machine while holding the mouse button should make it eject the floppy. Works on my 512k.

Oh, and doesn't command-q or command-e work when in the tour?

 

[Mac128]

Turning on the machine while holding the mouse button should make it eject the floppy. Oh, and doesn't command-q or command-e work when in the tour?

Forgot about holding down the mouse button. Yes that should work.

Unfortunately, since all he can access is Mousing Around, once he's in it, it cannot be quit except for turning off the Mac. And no, Cmd+E won't work either. I don't believe it can be done from the main launch screen either, since the Finder has been substituted with the special MGT Finder which does not enable all the normal Finder commands. Only when clicking Let me use My Macintosh is the real Finder loaded, but this FInder is a beta version as well, so not sure if all v1.0 Finder commands are included there either.

 

[basalgangster]

I have a disk image of the October 1984 guided tour disks that came with my 512K Mac. The original disks work in my real computer, and the disk images made with DiskCopy also work in Mini vMac. If you want them, send me an email address and I'll try to send you the images. I think you should be able to copy them to a real disk using DiskCopy. I don't know why they copy okay. I didn't know those disks were copy protected. Mine seem not to be. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Mac128]

I have a disk image of the October 1984 guided tour disks that came with my 512K Mac. ... I don't know why they copy okay. I didn't know those disks were copy protected. Mine seem not to be. Maybe I'm missing something.

You are missing something.

Only the January-April 1984 software bundles came with a copy protected Guided Tour disk, using a beta system .85 and beta Finder "1.0" (since the Tour would not run with the release system), to prevent it from being used as a startup disk. This disk is part number 690-5002-A.

From May-August 1984, a new Guider Tour disk was included, labeled part number 690-5002-B. The early beta System had been replaced with a new release System and Finder, and the incompatibility with the tour software had been fixed. By September 1984 when the Mac 512K was introduced, yet a third Guided Tour update was released, labeled 690-5002-C, which is the disk you likely have. Yours are therefore, not the original which contains the pre-release icons and Finder features which bsd107 is trying to get a look at.

Since the System and Finder on these later revised Guided Tour disks were standard release systems, there was no need to copy protect them.

Also, the copy protection scheme Apple used on the original Guided Tour disk was easily gotten around with something like Copy II Mac, or even DIsk Copy might have worked. The copy protection was designed to prevent dragging the System and Finder to another disk, or the entire disk to another to be used as a startup disk as was the common practice at the time.

 

[Mac128]

Almost forgot about this well documented overview of the original tutorial:

http://www.guidebookgallery.org/tutorials/mac1984

 

[bsd107]

From May-August 1984, a new Guider Tour disk was included, labeled part number 690-5002-B. The early beta System had been replaced with a new release System and Finder, and the incompatibility with the tour software had been fixed. By September 1984 when the Mac 512K was introduced, yet a third Guided Tour update was released, labeled 690-5002-C, which is the disk you likely have. Yours are therefore, not the original which contains the pre-release icons and Finder features which bsd107 is trying to get a look at.

Thanks for this info - I had never seen it anywhere.

The "A Guided Tour of the Macintosh" diskette that I have is labeled 690 5002-C. Unfortunately, this indicates that it won't have the beta version of the system that is on diskette version "A", which is what I was really looking for.

When booting from my guided tour diskette (version "C") here is what DOES work:

- Mousing Around

- Let me use my Macintosh! (see below)

- I'm Ready to Stop! (which ejects and reboots the mac)

When selecting any of the following, I get a message "There are some files missing form this training disk which make it impossible to use." and only an "OK" button to click. Clicking "OK" ejects the diskette and causes a reboot:

- Show Me my Electronic Desk!

- What's the Finder!

- Why do I have Windows?

- What Else is in the Menus? (this one actually causes the mouse to freeze, and I have to choose "OK" by pressing Return on the keyboard)

- Time to Play the Maze!

-

So, choosing "Let me use my Macintosh!" actually DOES work, and it takes me to the desktop. Interestingly, the last menu in Finder is called "Training", and has only the single menu selection of "Quit" - choosing this relaunces the tour. Choosing "About the Finder" reports a 1984 copyright and Version 1.1h.

Is Version 1.1h the correct version for the "C" flavor of the Guided Tour diskette? There are some files on the diskette that don't seem to belong there, like Notes, Clipboard File, Note Pad File, etc. What is confusing is that I don't know that is missing that keeps the tour from working.

I can play "Amazing", but only if I boot from another system floppy.

So, I'm stull hunting for a way to find a physical copy of the original 690 5002-A version of the Guided Tour diskette....

Thanks, all, for your help.

 

[bsd107]

Slightly related side-question: I also managed to obtain an original diskette labelled "System and MacWrite MacPaint" "Backup". Copyright is 1984 and the part number on the label is 690-5023-A. When booting this, finder reports version 1.1g. Font Mover and Fonts are on this diskette (which somewhat surprises me).

Is this the original version that shipped with the very first 128k Macs?

 

[Mac128]

Finder 1.1h is correct. It was designed especially to support the revised Guided Tour. however, it is otherwise identical to 1.1g and will function as a normal Finder without any adverse side-effects.

Your 690-5023-A disk was released with the 512K in September, when all the disks were re-designed to fit inside one box instead of two. Finder 1.1g is correct for this version.

Notes, Clipboard File, Note Pad File, etc. are all normal for any disk. Did you look at the pictures of the disk contents of the original on the links I provided? That may give you a clue as to what is missing, or what has been reconfigured that broke the tutorial. Or you could detail everything on your disk for others with that version of the tutorial to compare against theirs. "Amazing" is an application, so it will work stand alone under most systems.

What do you mean you are still hunting for a way to find the original? I see them on eBay all the time. Disk images are floating around so you could make your own.