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Twiggy 128K prototype, again.
- Thread starter superpantoufle
- Start date
Mac512k
Member
The 2 media types are incompatible - Twiggy Macintosh ROM's will nuke any 400k (internal or external) drive that is introduced. We must keep in mind that the Macintosh's software was developed and written on the Lisa. The early Macs were used only for debugging and testing purposes (due to their lack of RAM and Hard Drive storage capabilities). It was only in the very late sages of the game that Apple switeched to the Sony 3.5" drive.
I am awaiting a response from Andy Hertzfeld to see if he knows anything about the last-minute changes and particulars involved in the latter part of the Macintosh's development.
Cheers,
Adam
I am awaiting a response from Andy Hertzfeld to see if he knows anything about the last-minute changes and particulars involved in the latter part of the Macintosh's development.
Cheers,
Adam
Macdrone
Well-known member
Why would they put an external port that would be nuked with the correct interface? I could understand if the file system were incorrect but nuking doesnt seem correct. I understand written on the lisa but the twiggy mac works, it boots, it does what a mac does by the looks of it. The software runs the hardware, if a 128 wont boot due to twiggy drivers i can understand that, but like the 512 willl use a floppy hard drive and all they did is write a startup disk for it. So like I was saying if we can format a MFS disk 400K and copy the twiggy software and try and make it boot that would be slick.
Brooklyn
Well-known member
Will the disks read on a twiggy Lisa? What about putting the disks in a Twiggy Lisa that has an external ProFile drive, copying the contents to the proFile, and then connecting the proFile to a Lisa that's been upgraded to a 3.5" floppy. Then copying back over to a 3.5. Would that work?
Mac512k
Member
The Lisa 1's file format is completely different than that of the early Twiggy Macintosh's file format. This is why we needed to use the "BLU" (Basic Lisa Utility) in order to archive and subsequently duplicate these 2 Macintosh Twiggy disks. The "BLU" (Basic Lisa Utility) has several functions - one of which is to copy any data on a disk (bit-for-bit) that is introduced.
The early Macintosh OS and it's subsequent applications were written in one of the Lisa's available programming languages, such as Pascal, Basic plus, or Cobol.
The early Macintosh OS and it's subsequent applications were written in one of the Lisa's available programming languages, such as Pascal, Basic plus, or Cobol.
Mac512k
Member
To the extent of my knowledge - No, a Twiggy Macintosh disk cannot be directly copied with a Lisa 1. Consider that several copying / security measures were instituted with the Macintosh at this time. One of which was date & time-based. Some were copy-protection related. For example, once you eject a system disk from the fully-booted Twiggy Mac, it will instantly ask you to "please insert a system disk". To answerer your question, you would need to have some extensive knowledge and use a Lisa computer to translate / transport the particular Mac OS data over to the Sony 3.5" disk format. Note that "Monkey", "Heap Doctor", "TrapList", "MacsBug", and "Disassembler" were incorporated into the early Mac OS could and could not all be run off of a 400k disk and on 128k of RAM. I would think this would be more successfully stored on Twiggy disks which had 871k storage capacity, allowing more programs and utilities to be stored on one single disk.
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Macdrone
Well-known member
So the twiggy disks in question are bigger than 800k? So how did they write the original Mac system on the Lisa and transfer it to the 3.5. I understand they trimmed the system to work on a 128 but for all purposes the hardware is the same correct? How much ram did the twiggy Mac have? If its same as a128 or 512 then my question stands.
Im just curious because from the folklore pages it seems they had a way to put it on 3.5 at some point.
Im just curious because from the folklore pages it seems they had a way to put it on 3.5 at some point.
Mac512k
Member
I have observed somewhat of a simplifation in the early released versions of the Mac OS (1984), and in early released versions of MacWrite and MacPaint,. They have some key -command functions which missing - such as (command-c) copy and (command-v) Paste. I am comparing this whith what I have seen with MacPaint 0.5 and MacAuthor (later to become MacWrite). I think these differences were related to simplifying the Mac OS into something that was more compatible with 128k of RAM and able to be stored on a 400k disk.
Mac512k
Member
Here's a "trailer" video for you guys.
Again, a lot of work and travel time was involved in order to get the Twiggy Macintosh to boot
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/Videos/TwiggyTechv1HDV-iPhone.m4v
-Adam
Again, a lot of work and travel time was involved in order to get the Twiggy Macintosh to boot
http://adam.trideja.com/PrototypeTwiggyMac/Videos/TwiggyTechv1HDV-iPhone.m4v
-Adam
Mac512k
Member
Thanks! No, I only have 1 machine - the other is owned by Gabreal Franklin, former president of Encore Systems (Randy Wigginton's company). Encore wrote what became MacWrite. They took it all the way up to MacWrite 4.5. He was kind enough to let me borrow his only 3 disks for archival purposes - 2 of which were usable. As the story goes, Gabreal used his "Twiggy Mac" as a door stopper for a time, not realizing it's potential significance and value. I was able to fix his motherboard and power supply. I swapped over the EPROM's from his machine into mine, which allowed the Twiggy Mac to boot from his disks. Apparently, new software and ROM revisions were turned over every week to a few days during late 1983, Therefore if you don't have software to match the EPROM's, you are in trouble, I was subsequently was able to get both machines operational by duplicating and archiving Gabreal's ROM's and disks. (long story).
onlyonemac
Well-known member
So who owns the Twiggy Mac? Do you own it, Mac512k? (At least in your avatar you do !)
Tell me more! Loads more!
Tell us everything you can!
Did you get to touch the Mac? Did you put the disk in? Does a friend of yours own it? Are there two twiggy Macs?
I can't wait for the full video (BTW your link appeared to be broken)!!!
Well done!!!
!)Tell me more! Loads more!
Tell us everything you can!
Did you get to touch the Mac? Did you put the disk in? Does a friend of yours own it? Are there two twiggy Macs?
I can't wait for the full video (BTW your link appeared to be broken)!!!
Well done!!!
onlyonemac
Well-known member
Another question-where did you get the disks from?
Have you read the content of the threads? He has stated the answer to that. Only four posts ago.
So in case *I've* missed something, a question to the OP... are the disk and ROM images involved with this going to be leaked out somewhere? (Don't say where *exactly*, this forum is edgy about that.) I'm sure there are people with the technical smarts to make things happen who would love to take a look at them. Broadly speaking I'm guessing that it probably wouldn't be *that* difficult to get an emulation of the Mac Twiggy drive running under MAME (er, MESS, I mean) if a few small questions could be answered by looking at the disk driver code.
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