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Farallon ETHERMAC LC NSC w/NuBus drivers in the SE/30 PDS?

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15 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Seems like some bad news about testing in the SE/30 in Slot $E with the Video ROM pulled and the Pivot Card/external display:


Another thing to think about here: regardless of whether or not pulling that little fake declaration ROM off the board in an SE/30 would make it "not see" the display hardware you have to remember that the actual display hardware would be there regardless. IE, there would still be address decoders sitting on the bus enabling the SE/30's VRAM and whatever control ports it presents inside the SE/30's slot area *unless* there is some sort of mux/buffer that has to be explicitly enabled to allow that hardware to work, and the control port for *that* would also likely reside somewhere inside the slot $E area. That stuff is *electrically* going to conflict with any other PDS device you try to put there.

The fact that the SE/30 displays "simasimac" instead of a blank screen when it's broken in such a way to prevent it from starting is a clear indication that the hardware in there is completely "hard-coded" and doesn't require any software initialization to come on and start pushing pixels out the door. (Video cards that require programming something like a CRTC chip *don't* display anything if the CPU isn't starting unless the chip's registers are set to come on in a working base config; this is the case with the display chips in some old home computers, but not so much anything more modern.) That is also a really big strike against any idea that it's possible to "soft-disable" it.

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Thanks for checking, I haven't had a chance to more than glance at it. So I haven't starting wrapping again. Doing research for two projects and thinking about another at the same time. Apparently they're all intertwined.

 

1)  Farallon LC NIC adapter for the SE/30 in this thread

 

2)  The notion of expanding that to an SE adapter for the NIC that we've been toying with just got a big boost.

     I was reminded of an SE 68000 PDS adapter/Video Card I have in hand. Video is output only?

     Might be an important link to using an LC PDS NIC in the SE, need to see if it's capable of doing I/O?

 

3)  Baby creep project toward Internal GS VidCard development for the SE/30 was what turned me on to those complications.

     I've been gleaning tidbits from five year old threads. Need information on Compact Mac Video in general. Gotta set up my first rev(?) Spectrum/24 for 512x342 @ 60Hz.

     Goal is driving a MultiSync Monster from signals for that Compact Video Res.  Signals that might possibly be fed to an A/B and a GS Neck Board way down the road. TPD first up.

 

WireWrap1 adapter is currently slated for baseline testing in the IIsi, due to what appear to be serious complications imposed be very low level video subsystem activity in the startup sequence of the SE/30. Schniznit! :p

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That Big Picture adapter is not meant to be used in the LC.

 

The video card you got there is meant to be used together with an accelerator that has the correct 64pin connector.

If you want to use it without an accelerator you can do so by using the adapter you have.

 

If you plug this thing into an LC all it will do is release some smoke.

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No doubt of that. I was mucsing about using it in the SE to interface with the LC NIC. Premise was based the accelerator being 68020 or 68030, the monitor interface might be seen as a significant subset of the LC 020 PDS? Wondering if the logic in the PAL could be much of what's needed for that SE PDS to LC NIC translation.

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I started looking into testing the adapter in the IIsi and found something interesting about the Asante MacCon3 IIsi in the manual:

 

MacCon-SlotE-Setup.JPG.1b7b4a1d934ac8d2ceca3bc769461bfa.JPG

 

I was wondering about how to go about setting the NIC up to be in Slot$E, maybe it's not such a big deal after all? I thought I'd need to hijack the $E interrupt at the logic board level, but the Asante NIC appears to be able to do it via jumper configuration? But the 030 PDS only has three interrupt lines?

 

How might this work?

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Hopefully I can figure that jumper config out. With a bit of luck it's not a logical intervention synthesizing $E in the GALs. Can't figure out why they'd have bothered with implementing a Slot ID that conflicts with onboard video in its target machine. WAG would be that the "Address Set" of the NIC does not conflict with Vampire Video memory mapped to that Slot and by extension, precludes stepping on the SE/30 video mapped within the same space?

 

Couldn't relocate the technical discussion thread for this project. :/

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Could be jumper is used with (2 years newer) IIsi and ignored on SE/30, since reasonable assumption circa 1991-92 would have been nobody installs a second PDS card on SE/30 due to physical constraints. There weren’t other PDS cards on the market at the time that had vertical slots or the MacCon to hop on top of, SE/30s were really just single PDS card machines.

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Missed your comment, nick. Dunno, when did DiiMO cards with passthru connectors hit the SE/30 market? I'm wondering if it's mapped to memory for Slot E that conflicts with neither SE/30 rudimentary video nor IIsi Vampire Video frame buffers? May or may not matter for the LC NIC adaptation. I'm suddenly thinking about the PseudoSlot location of LC Internal Video, if it is also implemented in Slot $E, LC NICs are also mapped outside that location in memory?

 

The DuoDock+ board is one huge multifunction Slot E expansion card with Video and AAUI NIC on board. HRMMM? :huh:

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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Pulled a pile of stuff out onto the dining room table to see what was up with that Address E (Slot $E) setting using the IIsi board @maceffects sent my way for the project. All is good with it using BMOW's ROM-inator II boot disk w/TattleTech handily on board. It's been a while since my IIsi boards have been usable (recap fraidycat still [:I]) so I relearned a couple of things.

 

While RBV/Vampire Video uses memory mapped to NuBus/PDS $E, the RBV system shows up at location Slot $00, which is the Mac board itself.

With no sense lines/display detected on the Video port at startup, memory for Vampire Video remains unbuffered and RBV disappears from the Slot $00 function listings.

With NIC set to $E when booting with display attached to either my SuperMac Card or to the RBV/Vampire Video setup it fails to make an appearance in the NuBus/PDS report.

 

So came up with more questions, no answers. Asante's $E setting appears to be a canard or might have been implemented for an unrealized third generation of 030 PDS machines equipped with VRAM and no Slot $E entanglements imposed by Vampire Video?

 

Alternately, I'm wondering if the drivers were loaded it might show up in the IIsi's Slot $00 motherboard function listings as a built-in Ethernet setup with or without RBV in the picture? That's unlikely as well as being well beyond the scope of what I've got lashed up for today's session.

 

Before heading off on that wild goose chase, I need to figure out the Address jumper mechanism of the Asante NIC et al. WAG would be that one of the involved lines for using $E heads to a pin reserved by Apple for adding a fourth interrupt to the 030 PDS for a third gen 030 PDS machine?

 

Anybody got a handle on the address setting  jumper setup in general for the 030 PDS?

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Q605 compatible HDD booted just fine the first time, but I should have installed a SIMM before testing it. Got a 1MB free memory required dialog box when I tried to run TattleTech from stock RAM. After installing memory the drive appears to have died on me. I've got a few others handy, but they're all 7.1/incompatible. I remain curious about where things show up on the NuBus/PDS report for the LC PDS.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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Well, looks like there must be something to setting the Asante MacCon Address Jumper setup to "E" after all given this result:

 

SE30-MacCon-Address-E-conflict.thumb.JPG.b31993599894f7d07e6a4bd50039e46a.JPG

 

Couldn't repeat that result, came up with this screen thereafter  .  .  .

 

SlotE-interference-2.JPG.81669ccff4e8860e6bfb8d3058879421.JPG

 

.  .  .  which looks to be the same as the pattern I get when installing a IIsi NuBus Adapter in the SE/30.

 

 

On a tangential note for a change: also got that same pattern running with the SE/30 Video ROM pulled, but the boot screen came right up up on the external display.

 

VidROM-pulled-extSUScreen-NoPro.thumb.JPG.665b0645a4c2141dd68a1ec76f261a90.JPG

 

Display is out of whack at 19" on the LCD, but as you can see, SE/30 internal Video in Slot $E makes no appearance when the ROM is pulled.

 

VidROM-in-NoPro-0.thumb.JPG.fe6ba63346f5de822a2a2c1370a75a0a.JPGVidROM-in-NoPro-1.thumb.JPG.88b7b117987ea200057db591abaea9ed.JPG

 

With the Video ROM restored, the external display remained as the Startup Screen and the SE/30 Screen was fine as the aux screen.

 

ISTR seeing reports that the SE/30 tries to use internal video as the startup screen, even with the Video ROM pulled, but happily that doesn't seem to be the case! So the door appears to be cracked open a bit for developing a "relatively simple" internal only Grayscale Card for the SE/30. Just maybe?

 

 

But that's tangential information developed at the end of today's Asante MacCon/Slot $0E research. Been poking around at that GS Card notion in some loosely related threads.

 

 

 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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Was that testing a card with the jumper/switch or did you try to use the prototype card?   Looks interesting.  I’m certainly no expert but I think it sounds like there must be a way given the results. 

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I was just testing that oddball "Address E" setting on the MacCon NIC for the IIsi. Need to read up on that Mac again, coming up empty on my guesses so far. I'm running down all possibilities for testing the adapter without major logical intervention. The mixed results were more interesting than promising today. Need to read over my posts after the brain comes online again in the AM. :blink:

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That's interesting. As Gorgonops mentioned earlier in thread:

 

That stuff is *electrically* going to conflict with any other PDS device you try to put there.
 

Perhaps that's what you're seeing on the main monitor.

 

Not sure if I understood all the permutations you tried, but did you try pulling the video ROM *and* setting the MacCon to address E? Or would that be pointless? 

Edited by nickpunt

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I'm struggling to follow the conversation, which is my responsibility so I deserve nothing here... but if I'm reading this right:

  1. The wire wrap is complete
  2. You've installed a IIsi NuBus Video Adapter
  3. It totally works, except there's a potential conflict with the SE/30 ROM and internal video no longer works

Am I reading this correctly?

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I was exhausted when I posted. so I can't follow it either! :lol:

 

Wire wrap not finished, playing around with test cases for using it.

No NuBus Adapter involved, only mnentioned it because of the (identical?) screen pattern.

Things work strangely playing with everything BUT the wire wrap adapter/LC NIC

 

10 hours ago, nickpunt said:

Not sure if I understood all the permutations you tried, but did you try pulling the video ROM *and* setting the MacCon to address E? Or would that be pointless? 

Good Question! Never tried that with the VidCard/External Display.

 

Machine state on first pass last night: Video ROM in place - MacCon set to address E. No VidCard/External Display

SE30-MacCon-Address-E-conflict.JPG

 

Just tried your suggestion with a new twist, now I'm sure I didn't try it last night!:

 

Machine state: Video ROM pulled, VidCard/Display in place!

VidROM-pulled-MacCon-E.thumb.JPG.e5141c636b1ce35d340ef7ca3cb73120.JPG

 

MacCon shows up in place of internal Video in Slot $0E, so I've got promising results after all for testing the Farallon LC NIC and an immediate reason to get back to wrapping! Not expecting full function, but hopeful of seeing its DeclROM in the report above at $0E. [:P]

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Looks like SE/30 Video implementation follows Apple's PseudoSlot design conventions and the IIsi doesn't.

 

Anybody know offhand if IIci Internal Video shows up at $00 as a function of the System/Logic Board as in the case of the IIsi or if it follows the PseudoSlot model, having its own Slot ID assigned as in the SE/30? I'm guessing the former.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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So with the video ROM pulled it should yield favorable test results?  Would adding a custom ROM be of use?  Just trying to brainstorm. I have some machines I can use for testing too if we get to that point. 

 

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To reiterate again, it makes sense that you're not seeing a problem in Tattletech with the video ROM pulled out, but you *still* might very well have an electrical conflict from the video circuitry sitting on the bus if whatever you're sticking in there overlaps with its I/O space. (Remember, all I/O is memory mapped with the 68k CPUs, and ethernet cards also do have real RAM on them.) You could potentially damage your machine if this is the case.

 

(Scenario: Ethernet card has a RAM buffer on it that gets filled when an ethernet packet comes in. This RAM buffer overlaps with the 64k of VRAM in the SE/30, which may not be seen as a video buffer without the ROM pulled but is still sitting at its normal address. Packet comes in, driver goes to read it, and both the video RAM and the ethernet buffer RAM try to answer. Electrical sadness ensues.)

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That is an interesting situation, I think you may be right.  I am willing to sacrifice one of my boards if it will lead to learning something useful.  

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3 hours ago, Gorgonops said:

To reiterate again, it makes sense that you're not seeing a problem in Tattletech with the video ROM pulled out, but you *still* might very well have an electrical conflict from the video circuitry sitting on the bus if whatever you're sticking in there overlaps with its I/O space. (Remember, all I/O is memory mapped with the 68k CPUs, and ethernet cards also do have real RAM on them.) You could potentially damage your machine if this is the case.

I'm actually expecting conflict to be the case, which is why I said I don't expect full function for the LC NIC even if it by some chance does show up in that slot space. I'll be happy if I can get its DeclROM to show up anywhere at all in that report.

 

Thanks for the warning, didn't realize such conflicts could cause damage to the circuitry? Wasn't planning on loading drivers for testing the MacCon card in that configuration, now I definitely won't.

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Has anyone got a handle on how "Address Set E" is generated from the jumpers on the Asante NIC? Haven't buzzed the lines yet, but I have a sneaking suspicion this setup leads to GAL/PAL intervention? The Spectrum/8 appears to be hardwired to "Address Set 9." ISTR other cards being set up for only two "Address" Sets using the same two jumper setup.

 

Very curious, time to break out the continuity tester is seems, but any ideas/theories would be much appreciated.

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I know that @Bolle is developing a much better board, but I still hate leaving projects unfinished.  I'm going to try wire wrapping this myself, once I can find the right wire wrap capable 120 pin right angle card.  Or maybe I'll just make a PCB to try it.  I'll be using the approach @Trash80toHP_Mini discussed on page six.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained. 

IMG_8428.jpeg

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We both hit a brick wall in the Technical Thread related to this project, but I can't find it ATM?

 

I can finish up my board and send it to you. That's the easy part, it's connecting the proper lines to the proper pins on one of my PLCC-20P-T sockets that's been holding things up. If someone can give me the schematic for that I can wrap it up quickly, so to speak.

 

Equations for and burning of the GAL for that socket as outlined in the TechThread are way above my pay grade. When I started here, theory was that we only needed to swap a couple of lines and run them through the inverter I have in hand for the socket that's already installed. Then we hit that GAL roadblock in the other thread. That'd be Hadrian's wall from my point of view, someone on the Roman side needs to take over, they were pretty good at engineering.

 

Bolle's new NIC development is fabulous, but probably not going to affect developments here. 10bT performance should be equal. If anything, the LC boards are more advanced in terms of being ASIC based, which of course makes them impossible to clone! The interesting thing though would be comparing the input load requirements of the those later generation technology ASICS as compared to the logic on Bolle's MacCon clone. If appreciably lower, the LC NIC may well make using it more reliable than MacCon/other 030 PDS NIC when pushing the limits of the SE/30 PDS expansion envelope?

 

There's also the notion on the previous page about adaptation of an LC NIC to the SE? Farallon didn't happen to have done a version of this NIC for the SE? If not, driver development would be the same thing. I'll tilt at windmills, but thaqt Hadrian thing is quite another thing entirely. :-/

 

 

edit, fabulous prototyping board! :approve:

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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