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jessenator

4400/200 - dirty to clean

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Quick history:
All of the Mac's 3.5" floppy drives (400k SS, 800k DD, 1.4MB HD SuperDrive, including PowerBooks) were OE'd from Sony until 1993ish when the manual-inject drives were introduced. The manual-inject drives could be from any of three manufacturers: Sony, Mitsubishi, or Panasonic. Sony desktop drives occasionally show up in 68k models but I really haven't seen many after the early Power Macs, though they did start reappearing in PowerBooks in 1997ish. Mitsubishi was the largest supplier of the manual-inject units for both desktops and PowerBooks. Panasonic supplied desktop drives for a couple years before floppy drives were discontinued; they're most commonly found in 8600, 9600, and G3 models.

 

The floppy thing can be frustrating. It's best to keep like-for-like, but there's some interchangeability. Basically, pre-SuperDrive models can only use pre-SuperDrive auto-inject, though you may be able to use a SuperDrive in an 800k-equipped Mac but it will only read 800k disks. There are also caveats regarding floppy drive ribbon stripes that can be found if you're super into trying to swap drives around into various '80s Macs.

 

The incompatibility between later Power Macs and auto-inject floppy drives has to do with a signal that goes over pin 9 on the cable. If you cut pin 9, you can use an auto-inject floppy drive on a 5xxx/6xxx or PCI-based Power Mac. This is how people with Power Color Classics get the auto-inject floppy drive to work.

 

Otherwise, rule of thumb is that a 68040-based Mac and x100-series Power Mac can use whichever SuperDrive, but others may only work with one type or the other unless you want to mod the cable.

 

I have not tested a manual inject floppy to see if it still works with a modified cable on a later Power Mac.

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3 hours ago, CC_333 said:

I'm running out of ideas....

No worries! Thanks for the help and input. Because the drive I have appears hosed, I also bought a compatible replacement floppy last night.

 

I formatted another card under 10.4, including drivers, but since drive setup under os 9 wouldn't allow me to touch the CF card, I'm not sure anything of the sort of necessary disk changes happened.

 

I think I'm going to have to rely on the replacement drives working when they get here.

 

Ugh patience ;)

 

    3 hours ago, Franklinstein said:

    The incompatibility between later Power Macs and auto-inject floppy drives has to do with a signal that goes over pin 9 on the cable. If you cut pin 9, you can use an auto-inject floppy drive on a 5xxx/6xxx or PCI-based Power Mac. This is how people with Power Color Classics get the auto-inject floppy drive to work.

 

Good to know though.

Edited by jessenator

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I went ahead and purchased a replacement floppy this weekend. It was a decent price and I'd like to have a fully-working machine. Seller had a large volume of stuff, but still responded and it shipped out Monday; nice turnaround.

 

The CD-ROM I bought Friday, but still hasn't been shipped. This seller seems to take their time based off feedback.

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Mine was working but had some odd behavior, decided to recap it, when the caps were getting pulled out, a lot of leakage poured all over the riser card, also some cap goo related corrosion near the PSU connector.

56334724_424200648387752_7309420045799522304_n.jpg

56386436_1032910690253615_7972437536012238848_n.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Jon183 said:

Mine was working but had some odd behavior, decided to recap it, when the caps were getting pulled out, a lot of leakage poured all over the riser card, also some cap goo related corrosion near the PSU connector. 

Worked okay after you cleaned it up?

 

CC_333: haha well good. I'm trying to be better with my complaining on and offline.

 

I'm actually trying to bridge stuff with another tactic: using one of my spare SCSI drives with system folder contents from the 4400 restore disc. Fingers crossed, even though I've got hard and fast solutions on the way.

 

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Ok, so (for the 4th or 5th time) I'm a dingus.

 

I was concerned that DriveSetup was not seeing my CF card (within the external drive booting off the 7.5.3 minimal system folder from the 4400 restore CD) and then I remembered there were jumper settings on the adapter... the card is labeled with "defaults" but after some reading, they were not set on their defaults. After switching the jumper so the drive was now master and BAM:

LBDT3un.jpg
iTZHVNt.jpg
3VhWjKA.jpg

 

Apparently that install from my iBook CD worked...

 

I think I'm going to try a couple options- the original OS, 7.5.3, possibly 7.6, most likely 8.1 or 8.5, but 9.1 is pretty laggy, but then again, I'm comparing that experience with my iBook G3 500MHz -  granted, 9.1 would let me keep my unpartitioned 32GB CF card, but I want a good experience.

Edited by jessenator

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21 hours ago, jessenator said:

Worked okay after you cleaned it up?

 

CC_333: haha well good. I'm trying to be better with my complaining on and offline.

 

I'm actually trying to bridge stuff with another tactic: using one of my spare SCSI drives with system folder contents from the 4400 restore disc. Fingers crossed, even though I've got hard and fast solutions on the way.

 

It appears to but I haven't checked its stability by leaving it on for a long period of time.

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Got my floppy drive yesterday and gave it a workout. Turns out the old floppy drive ruined one of my diskettes it was so badly malfunctioning.

 

It's a Sony from a later Power Mac vs the original Mitsubishi, and it's much quieter, so that's nice. Since the Sony came on a plastic drive tray, I had to make a contact shield for the controller board. I opted for some leftover water pump gasket material I had sitting around, and that made it even quieter :) Made sure to cut out a section for the spindle also. Hopefully the CD-ROM will arrive soon.

 

Also, for kicks I ran MacBench 3 & 4. I haven't yet installed graphic converter or other graphics software yet, so I snapped a phone pic of the basic v.4 results. I should redo the WHOLE test, but it was getting on to midnight before v.3 test completed and I wanted sleep. There's give and take obviously, but it's nice not having a spinner to slow things up (and make noise). I should also add in the PM 7300 since it's a fairer contemporary to the 4400 than the 7600.
dZ9dOHm.jpg

 

I'm also thinking about a quieter cooling solution. That passive heatsink on the 603e was barely even warm, so I'm wondering if I can resist down the voltage to the case fan so it's not blowing at 100% RPM. It's nice having PWM fans and temp sensors on modern builds…

Also added a passive heatsink to the main IC of my Rage128 GL because I could }:) It's right in the path of the fan airflow now, so I shouldn't have any heat issues, even after an RPM choke.

Edited by jessenator

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Finishing up the "cleaning" part now with a little retrobrite. I know I've said I won't do it, but I will on this machine as it's not a classic Mac. I've also contemplated making a custom front panel just for kicks.
vS1h5vO.jpg
pSs2YnX.jpg

 

I will say, this method gives you a lot of control over the exposure. I.e. the blacklight is slow as cold molasses in January. 
a) you have to have the light CLOSE to the piece you're brightening. I had it about 2-3 feet above and it hardly did anything.

b) you don't have to encase it in plastic-- I live in a dry place, but doing it indoors with a blacklight ensures your developer doesn't evaporate too quickly. 

c) check every hour vs half hour if you're close to the light source. What I've done out of more "due diligence" than anything is just retouched the surface with a brush to keep the developer as even as possible.

 

Pbuh5N7.jpg

 

right now I'm hitting the top, as the angle I had it set to previously didn't hit the that portion. in all honesty, it's doing a good job with no streaking.

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drying, but still pretty pleased with the outcome :) (comparing against the name badge as my WB on the phone is all over the place)
phPwIdW.jpg

only real before shot I have
K3R1QAO.jpg

unless you count the ebay listing

Le84i6k.jpg

Edited by jessenator

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Very nice work! Looks like a great little machine!

 

I’d like to have a Power Macintosh from that era someday. 

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Good idea on the blacklight. I’ve always felt something was not right leaving plastics out under the sun. I like that this is a more controlled method 

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7 hours ago, PB145B said:

Looks like a great little machine!

It runs pretty well right now. Can't wait to get 8.1 or 8.6 on it, just for a lighter weight OS.

 

39 minutes ago, Charadis said:

I like that this is a more controlled method  

Yeah, I was worried at first that it wasn't working at all, but it just takes more time. I saw enough horror photos of botched Saran wrap jobs that I tried to figure out another way...

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8 minutes ago, toples50 said:

Great work for an incredible machine!

I'm still looking the metal top bar for my Power Mac 4400...

Thanks! Let me PM you about the eBay listing I got (there's still another one)

 

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Very nice work on this!

 

OS: if 9.1 isn't fast for you (and thinking about it, I'm both surprised and unsurprised, compared with, say, my 8600 where 9.1 is Fine(TM)) then I'd consider going to 7.6.1.

 

8.1 is probably my next favorite compromise if HFS+ is important to you. 7.6.1 (and really, 7.5.5 too) will work fine as a single big volume on that hardware, maybe use DC6 images for collections of very small files or do like a 4GB boot partition and a [rest of the drive] data partition if you're worried.

 

 

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8.1 does have some nice amenities that help it into the 21st century, such as Carbon Lib support, so it can run a fair number of early Carbonized programs (AppleWorks 6, initial versions of iTunes, etc), though 8.6 would probably be best if you need HFS+, as it was the best of the 8.x line, and had most of the bugs worked out.

 

Other than that, I agree with Cory5412. For speed, 7.6.1 would probably be best (can Carbon Lib work on 7.6.x? Architecturally, it and 8.1 aren't terribly different).

 

c

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Thanks for the input

 

I have the the legacy restore cd and 7.6.1 is only an update on that collection. I've read the 4400 in particular can't boot 7.6.

Can you upgrade from 7.5.3 to 7.6.1? Or is it just a matter of booting from CD or other volume, installing the base system, then installing 7.6.1 before you attempt to boot?

 

I also read the 4400 can't run 7.5.5, but I'll gladly be corrected in that one.

 

So far I haven't used up 2GB my CF card, so maybe I can get by with what you suggested. I don't mind 2 partitions or even three.

 

Ugh Monday can't come soon enough and I'll have a working CD-ROM again.

 

Really the only reason I had 9.1 was, as mentioned earlier, the only thing I actually got installed and booting from my bridge machine (ibook). But hopefully Monday will bring me a tastier treat of a bridge Mac ;)

 

 

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You can pick up a PC/OSX-burnable ISO of 7.6.1 from here: http://personal.stenoweb.net/oldmac/ if you'd like. The iMac/233 8.1 CD should also work.

 

I had thought the 4400 shipped with 7.5.5, but perhaps it was 7.6.1.

 

If you have 7.5.x on it now, you can upgrade, although I'm personally a fan of doing clean installs, it's not like the media is hard to come by at this point.

 

Re carbon applications: In writing, most Carbon aplications need 8.6 or newer, and I personally don't tend to recommend 8.5/8.6, in favor of going all the way to 9.0.x or 9.1, in order to get the last of the application support and features. The amenities of 8.1 are purely the better finder, shipping with updated OT/AS *(which you can add to 7.6.1) and HFS+.

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Thanks for the link!

38 minutes ago, Cory5412 said:

I had thought the 4400 shipped with 7.5.5, but perhaps it was 7.6.1.

 

7.5.3, even though 7.5.5 was already released and 7.6.1 dropped not long after, according to 65scribe at any rate. His boxed version still had the promo piece for 7.6 in it. From all I read, 7.5.5 is a no-go. It looks like all the Tanzania models don't support 7.5.5… I have the ISOs of the basic restore disc and the Small Business bundle disc, both with version is 7.5.3 and system enabler 827.

 

I'll hopefully get a chance to run through all the programs I want to use on this machine and see which one is best suited. 

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7.6.1 is clearly the best version anyway.

 

39 minutes ago, jessenator said:

I have the ISOs of the basic restore disc and the Small Business bundle disc, both with version is 7.5.3 and system enabler 827

Because this is the thing I'm always asking:

 

Did you image those (if so, how and/or are you willing to reimage them) or were they on, like macgarden? (If they're there, I'll find them eventually, I'm on "apps_D", the fourth folder and the OS collection folder is the last of ~55 folders to work on.)

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20 minutes ago, Cory5412 said:

were they on, like macgarden?

Yeah. Some posts have nicely indexed DL sections, and others are woeful :/ 

I have #1 & #3 from this page: 
http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/power-macintosh-4400-software-media-set

No need for the tutorial, except to laugh—it's all Performa tutorials anyways.


These were available under the 7.5.3+ extras page

http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PM4400-200_WW.ZIP
World Wide version 7.5.3

 

http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PM4400CD_753.ZIP
7.5.3 (North America?) Version

 

http://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/PM4400-160CD_UK.ZIP
4400/160 Version (7.5.3)

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So my CD-ROM is here and it works!

 

However, I can't boot from any burned disc I have...  It'll read them just fine when I'm booted into 9.1, and the 9.1 OE disc I have boots just fine as well.

 

So far only the UK 4400 7.5.3 (which I somehow burned) and the NA 4400 small business restore CD will boot. Niether 7.6.1 retail nor 8.1 boot at all. My inexperience tells me it's the lack of the system enabler, but then how does it boot with other Macs? I might experiment with an upgrade...

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