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Von

NuBus N00B issues with network and video cards

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HI All,

 

I have been working to get this machine back online...

 

Today good progress was made getting a SeaSonic PS wired up as the IIci PS was not functioning:

2018-10-07_17_10_59.thumb.jpg.be781e320059b5b0b7e4df857686044d.jpg

 

The IIci fires up and I have been using the drive that came with the with 7.1 installed.  I also got a Radius PrecisionColor 8-Xj video card and Asante ethernet card:

2018-10-07_21_05_42.thumb.jpg.5a4faae3fdea461ef62eca7d792d2761.jpg

 

With both cards installed and my monitor moved to Radius, I get this on-screen and the machine appears to have booted however I can't access the drive nor is the cursor present. 

2018-10-07_12_59_49.thumb.jpg.b963af5fda58b3daf9e9aec3dedae7db.jpg

 

When I move the monitor back to the motherboard video, it works fine. When I open the Monitors CP, it only detects the on-board video. Running Slot Info also does not detect the video card.

 

As to the Asante, Slot Info see it however I can't get it to work:

 

When I plug a video or ethernet card into my PDS slots on the SE/30 or IIsi, the cards just work.  This does not seem to be the case with these NuBus cards.

 

I thought I might need a CP or init so I searched around and found RadiusWare 3.3 (nubus) which can bee seen in the screen grab immediately above. I installed only the init and during boot, I can see a radius icon being loaded with an "x" through it, however after boot (with video coming from the motherboard), Monitors CP only sees on-board video as you can see from Slot Info.

 

1045278076_Screenshot2018-10-0718_13_37.thumb.png.fa5e70680798aa4abdde1e2458ad9f59.png

As to the Asante, the reason you see MacCon in slots D and E is that one is the NuBus and the other is my Asante EN/SC which is working fine from the external SCSI connection and allowed me to copy the downloaded Radius bits to the IIci.  Its LEDs light up however the working ethernet cable does not give me any activity on my functioning D-Link 10/100 switch.  Perhaps I need some software here?  I ran out of day after trying to get the Radius working.

 

What is this NuBus N00B missing here?

 

THx

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It will only load if a Radius card is detected. If the card doesn't even show up in SlotInfo there is an issue with the card. Pretty sure this is not a driver issue.

The card should work even though there is no driver installed.

 

I had already two Radius cards now that had an issues with their ROMs, might be the problem here as well.

Edited by Bolle

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Any chance the Asante Card is conflicting with the Nubus Pivot?

The Asante Maccon manuals talk about the need to swap a jumper to change the address setting when installing them aside Radius Pivots (say in a IIsi). I had this issue on a IIsi I was installing an Asante card with a Radius card. Appreciate that Iici is not the same type (Nubus vs PDS) but could that be a possibility why it not comes up?. 

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There are no PDS type address conflicts between NuBus slots, they're hardwired on the mobo.

 

The first thing I'd do is uninstall the driver, that card doesn't need it for full function. Remove the NIC, baseline machine state is best for troubleshooting. IIRC the ROM is socketed pull it out and reinstall it in case there's a problem with grunge you can't even see. Do the same thing remove/reinstall the card in the other slots, starting with $E where the NIC is now located. Check for bent or missing pins on the card's connector while you're at it.

 

Once you've gone through the mechanicals checklist, Bolle's ROM diagnosis is spot on. Are ROMs particularly susceptible to ESD? Keep that in mind when cycling that part connection.

 

edit: just looked at the SlotInfo screenshot again. It's very strange that the NIC shows up in two of the three available slots. I can't figure out your explanation, a SCSI NIC shouldn't show up at a NuBus ID should it? Try that alone, sounds fishy to me. Don't recall that being the case with my Micro version of same.

 

New first steps: get rid of anything on the SCSI chain and try the NIC in the other two slots to test them for proper function. Then take it out and uninstall the driver to achieve baseline machine state if all seems well in the other two slots. It should show up in $D or $C alone.

 

Slot's empty in the pic above, but take the Cache card out if one is present. IIRC the memory map for Slot E is divvied up between NuBus Slot space, Cache Slot and maybe the Video subsystem? That might be in the physically nonexistent Slot $B space though. It's been a while since I looked at that DevNote, Bolle?

 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
the usual

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Thanks all for the input.  Here is the progress tonight...

 

I reverted to an install of 7.1 that:

-did not have the Asante EN/SC software

-did not have the RadiusWare init

-unplugged all NuBus cards and I never had a PDS cache or accelerator in this machine (yet...)

-unplugged everything from the SCSI bus

 

I started with the Radius card with no software installed.  I noticed a Jumper JP1 see at the lower right of the chip with the sticker on it:

20181008-2018-10-08_17_44.56_MDR.thumb.jpg.41daffd1a027b05227842a3df542ca67.jpg

It is hard see in this photo but it has 3 pins. In each NuBus slot I tried the card with the jumper in each position (leftmost pins, rightmost pins, and off). In all 9 cases Slot Info was not able to see the Radius card.

 

I did not pull the ROM which i'm assuming is the chip with the sticker as I don't have a chip puller for that size. The only puller I have is for the socketed 030.  Any suggestions on removal without the puller?

 

Any suggestions on other things to try for the Radius card?

 

Next I moved to the Asante card and tried in each of the slots.  This card has 2 jumpers:

1962102182_20181008-2018-10-0817_27.01_MDR.thumb.jpg.1d261769d57b16b48a748172706080e9.jpg

 

Top left of center is

ON: LINK DISABLE

 

The other is left side center JP1

ON:AUI

OFF: AUTO

 

I went with @superjer2000's suggestion of AUTO, and I tried each NuBus slot toggling LINK DISABLE ON and OFF.  As I was going through the tests, I was getting the same results

1. the green and amber LEDs on Asante would flash but not in any repeatable pattern

2. the LED on my D Link switch for the ethernet port that the Asante was connected to did not light up

 

The ethernet cable is known to be good as it carried last night's screen grabs from the IIci via the Asante EN/SC to my Lubuntu VM running on my MBP.

 

It was quite by mistake that when I was in the last NuBus slot, I got the D Link to light up.  The LINK DISABLE jumper was in the off position while the IIci was booting and I slid the jumper on, and voila, the D Link lit up and I was able to copy this screen grab from the IIci to my MBP:

2069321541_Screenshot2018-10-0821_51_11.thumb.png.ac6871c720eaa95c60d64d55da6846f1.png

The file server in the grab is my Lubuntu VM and Blumacs DOS VM is the mounted share.

 

Now here is where the plot thickens.  If I leave LINK DISABLE jumper on, the Asante does not make the connection to the D Link after power off, power on.  If I leave the LINK DISABLE jumper off, the Asante does not make the connection to the D Link after power off, power on. The only way for me to reconnect is to power on with the LINK DISABLE jumper off, then short the pins during the IIci boot sequence or after boot is complete.  That then lights up the D Link and Chooser can see my server.  I tried a different ethernet cable for fun and got the same results.

 

Any thoughts on what is going on here?  Do I need an Asante CP for this card?

 

One other thing I will mention...this IIci is driven by a SeaSonic power supply as its original was dead. However, the board has NOT been recapped.  Could bad caps be a culprit in 2 NuBus cards behaving badly?

 

THx!

 

 

 

Edited by Von
typoz

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Plug in both cards (Asante and Radius) again and show us what Slotinfo says this time without the SCSI/EN connected.

 

If MacCon shows up two times again you do have a problem with the ROM on the Radius card.

I have seen that while messing with DeclROMs on Nubus cards Slotinfo will just duplicate text from a different slot if it detects a card but fails to read the ROM.

 

The jumper next to the ROM on the Radius card might supply 12V programming voltage to the EPROM. You don‘t need this under normal operation and it might even mess things up when 12V are present.

Edited by Bolle

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7 minutes ago, Bolle said:

Plug in both cards (Asante and Radius) again and show us what Slotinfo says this time without the SCSI/EN connected.

OK, here is that setup:

1872253640_Screenshot2018-10-0822_23_43.thumb.png.55174c21b0da54841070f10408981599.png

Asante is in the outside most slot, Radius is next to it and the Nubus closest to the PDS is empty.  MacCon is not repeated.  I did not get a chance to pull all cards and only have the EN/SC installed as it is now past my bed time.

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I've never used or had a DIP puller for that size ROM but I've probably done it over a thousand times. Rockin a flat bladed screwdriver between IC and socket gradually , alternating between both ends does the trick. I don't recall ever killing a ROM, but I've been fairly careful about ESD booboos.

 

I may have an Xj in the Radius drawer, but can't get withing 5' of it ATM. It may be the (disposable) card kicking around IIx testing, but it's not in there now. I'm wondering that one's the 24AC, dunno I've got a few days off slated for reorg of the storage stuff blocking access to the Radius hoard.

 

It's difficult to imagine not finding an Xj somewhere, but if I can't find one it may not matter:

 

I mention this thread because the ROMs of the higher end Radius cards have been backward compatible with the lower end versions in my testing thus far. So if I don't find an Xj and nobody else can send you that ROM for testing, we can try my XP ROM and see what may happen. I need to get several hacks related packages out to others, might as well add to that pile of procrastination. ::)

 

Out of curiosity, what's the RAMDAC spec printed on your Xj's chip? I imagine it's VRAM limited, but it may share the XP's RAMDAC.

 

 

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Bits can flip in (E)EPROMs. According to most manufacturer datasheets bit flips are only happening like once every million or so years :rolleyes: but I have seen it happen more than once already ;)

Failing or weak cells can be related to timing errors in programming, non ESD conform handling or weird glitches going on in the hardware the ROM is used in (especially if the programming voltage is present all the time - which is the case on some Nubus cards)

 

Crazy thing you could try if the two ROM chips on the MacCon and Radius card are the same type... you can swap them between the two cards.

If the Radius shows up as MacCon with the Asante ROM inserted an the MacCon disappears from SlotInfo with the Radius ROM in it then we know for certain.

 

Another thing... I had good luck with Digidesign DigiTest which seems to detect Nubus cards even though they have a defective DeclROM.

You might want to try downloading ProTools 3.4 free and run DigiTest that comes with it and see if that picks up the Radius card.

If it does we know that the bus logic on the card at least answers the slot interrupt.

Edited by Bolle

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I pulled the sorta working with coercion Asante out of the IIci and after pulling the ROM from the Radius and cleaning its pins, Slot Info did not recognize it:

 

2018-10-09_17_16_53.thumb.jpg.840f245a43e2086a788d6170c2d37db2.jpg

 

Photo show the spudger I used to gently remove the ROM and the info on its back.  Are these units reflashable?

 

I am going to try moving that jumper see what happens.

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3 hours ago, Von said:

Are these units reflashable?

Depends on the chip type.

We would need to know what it says below the sticker.

There are chips that can only be programmed once.

EPROMS will need an UV eraser and a programmer to be erased and programmed again - if there is a window under the sticker you will have one of those.

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@Bolle I will have a go at the sticker tomorrow.  I am thinking that this card might unfortunately be toast...

 

@superjer2000 Good idea on the switch. My Asante Nics in my IIsi and SE/30s have had no problem with the D Link however I do have a couple of older units that I can try. While the card works, having to jump it ruins my dream of some day being able to run my Macs with closed cases...

 

More to come. 

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2 hours ago, Bolle said:

EPROMS will need an UV eraser and a programmer to be erased and programmed again - if there is a window under the sticker you will have one of those.

Make a pencil rubbing on paper over the sticker, if you see a round indent/ring show up (you might be able to feel it with your fingertip) that's the quartz window covering the memory lattice. If you cycle a failed EPROM, will it be reliable?

 

Quartz is transparent to UV, glass not very at all. Thick glass is pretty much opaque to UV, but thin sheets work with sun lamps for burning small photo silk screen stencils. How strong is a UV EPROM eraser? I'm guessing not very? We're talking olde schoole here. :approve:

 

edit: your testing hasn't gotten anywhere near declaration of death yet.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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19 minutes ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

How strong is a UV EPROM eraser?

Pretty strong I guess, in normal sunlight you won't be able to erase an EPROM reliably.

 

If the failure is due to a weak cell that was not programmed properly then reprogramming it after erasure will fix it permanently.

When it failed due to a broken transistor the chip is useless.

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Here is the Wednesday wack-a-mole update...

 

I tried with a different switch (Hawking tech wifi router with 4 ethernet ports) and the Asante card works fine even after power off restart. That is great news...Nic works.

 

So the reason I got the IIci was so that I could run the Daystar Turbo 601 and I couldn't resist giving that a try. I also added in an Adtron SCSI SSD:

2018-10-10_21_28_03.thumb.jpg.5c463fbc7e7db3225a10edd271539caf.jpg

 

I installed the Daystar 601 software on 7.5.5 and when I tried to boot for the first time, both the Radius and Asante were installed and I just got a gray screen. After I pulled both NuBus cards and rebooted it worked and I was able to get it running accelerated and it was snappy. 

 

1847485038_Screenshot2018-10-1021_56_57.thumb.png.59fd610b5b1d73e1bd69684249aac3b9.png

 

I then added the now working Asante and rebooted in "601 Turbo Startup" mode and and got this error at boot:

1319917502_Screenshot2018-10-1021_59_09.png.9e23873ff4b9a5e220a4ac063afe1319.png

If I toggle back to 030 mode the Asante works fine. So if I run Turbo, Asante does not work. Turbo off, Asante works fine... this is the newest mole to wack.

 

In reading the 601 compatibility sheet, it calls out an Asante TokenRing card:  

Turob601.thumb.jpg.37f97b67846f1610296179796dd6e384.jpg

I don't know if this is my model as mine has 3 different network connections, ethernet, one that looks like the video port, and a round one (I think they may be AUI and BNC?). The fix appears to be software so I will quest for that unless someone knows the specific bits I may need for Turbo 601 compatibility.

 

I may also try 7.6.1 and see if it has newer versions of the networking bits that may help here.

 

Then I moved back to the Radius card...

I took a look at the ROM and is does not appear to have the window to reflash.  When I was running the tests I did check to see what the card was outputting and it was like this:

On 10/7/2018 at 9:59 PM, Von said:

2018-10-07_12_59_49.thumb.jpg.b963af5fda58b3daf9e9aec3dedae7db.jpg

Does it sound like I have a card that just has a dead ROM?

 

When I look at the 601 compatibility sheet, it does list that my card does need a ROM update to work with the 601.  Is it possible to program a new ROM chip with the newer ROM bits?

 

THx for the input!!

Edited by Von
ordering

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8 minutes ago, Von said:

Is it possible to program a new ROM chip with the newer ROM bits?

Yes, totally.

Problem here is finding the proper ROM image these days. Do you have an E(E)PROM burner yourself?

I have a few Radius ROM images that I could send you and maybe someone with the same card as you but with a PPC compatible ROM can chime in and read out their chip.

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12 hours ago, Bolle said:

Yes, totally.

Problem here is finding the proper ROM image these days. Do you have an E(E)PROM burner yourself?

Unfortunately I do not have a burner for such a task.  Good to here that it can be done.  I think the Radius goes on the shelf until I can find a replacement ROM for it.

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imageproxy.php?img=&key=fcb9af74e9143c1bHi All,

 

I had a bit of time last weekend to try some suggestions from the seller of these cards wrt the Radius and that was to try with an adapter that had the dip switches. The video upload issue postponed this post...

 

When I boot to with the Radius connected to my NEC multisync VGA adapter, the Radius logo appears however the system isn't functional (no cursor or menus).

 

2018-10-19_16_13_02.thumb.jpg.46f31fa9e0f902fe9eefaab4cd57cc0b.jpg

 

Notice the size of the Radius logo compared to my earlier post:

On 10/10/2018 at 10:14 PM, Von said:
On 10/7/2018 at 9:59 PM, Von said:

2018-10-07_12_59_49.thumb.jpg.b963af5fda58b3daf9e9aec3dedae7db.jpg

Does it sound like I have a card that just has a dead ROM?

It looks like 2 different resolutions, I'd guess 1024x768 and then 640x480 in the older image.  I don't have an explanation for this. In both cases the system does not work.

 

This is the dip switch VGA adapter I have that I have never been able to get to work with my 17" ENvision LCD:

1041834442_2018-10-1916_28_52.thumb.jpg.ba2f020be766b1deb25f72857077382d.jpg

 

This is what the Radius looks like when I boot to a 24" Samsung LCD:

 

2018-10-19_21_48_25.thumb.jpg.24542c9249a912b2627694fdceeee185.jpg

 

I tried several of the dip switch settings but all the Samsung monitor saw was 640x480 and the IIci didn't see the Radius in the Monitors CP or SlotInfo..

 

175160011_2018-10-1917_13_50.thumb.jpg.7c674c0a15d768b52fc27f93475a1d0e.jpg

 

I swapped the monitors and got the same results:

 

2018-10-19_17_07_21.thumb.jpg.ee23eb313fa65bab3c682f9713f1296f.jpg

 

I searched for some Radius software and found RadiusWare 3.3 and 3.2.5 neither seemed to recognize the card or offer to install an extension on CP, even if I peaked in for custom install.

 

Does anyone have any other suggestions beside trying a different ROM?  FWIW, the IIci is my only NuBus Mac (for now) however my Asante Ethernet card functions from all 3 NuBus slots so these appear to be functioning as expected.

 

THx

 

 

Edited by Von
image orderation

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It's not drivers, the card has all it needs stored in ROM. RadiusWare is a resolution setting "feature" not a requirement. It's looking very much like the DeclROM is the problem. If it doesn't "Declare" itself to the Slot Manager as residing in any given slot when polled, the card's just not there as far as the OS is concerned.

 

The splash screen at startup mean's the card's functioning well enough, time to find a ROM image.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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1 hour ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

It's not drivers, the card has all it needs stored in ROM. RadiusWare is a resolution setting "feature" not a requirement. It's looking very much like the DeclROM is the problem. If it doesn't "Declare" itself to the Slot Manager as residing in any given slot when polled, the card's just not there as far as the OS is concerned.

 

The splash screen at startup mean's the card's functioning well enough, time to find a ROM image.

Makes sense. Thank you.

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