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Bubheart'sDaddy73

SSD in a 6500, anyone successfull?

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I'm having no joy getting an SSD hooked up to this machine. Tried two different PATA-to-SATA converters (every jumper setting imaginable, or using no jumpers at all etc.) and no luck. SSDs refuse to show up in Disk Utility (on 8.5 or 9.1 startup CD). I'd like to try a PATA SSD before I give up but the ones that are available have different pin layouts (44-pin) as compared to my Mac's IDE connector, which is only 40-pin for the main connection. There's some sorcery here that I'm not privy to so could some generous soul offer to help the class dunce please - and thank you! And I will go don the cap...[:I]

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I'd try standard drives on those converters before blaming it on SSD. 5500/6500/TAM are notoriously finicky little bat rastards. As I see it they're a consumer grade wild card offshoot from the main line of development as the Macintosh IIfx was from the pro lineup.

 

It's too bad you can't test a 6460/5400/6400 board in that rig to set a baseline reference. If you have any of those you could set the SSD up running in Alchemy and see if will transfer to your 6500 Gazelle architecture machine after the fact.

 

Are the adapters for IDE or ATA which has the missing pin/plug setup for alternate ground line cables?

 

 

 

 

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It'd be an issue with the IDE bus of the 6500 not properly supporting the newer SSD standards.

 

If still keen I'd try another smaller, older SSD (< 80GB, Intel only) or consider a generic mSATA to IDE adapter, again coupled with a < 80GB Intel branded mSATA part.

 

I spent an age trying various drives in my 6500/TAM, even faster newer mechanical IDE drives 80GB+ did not play nice, and especially not a 120GB Toshiba mSATA drive.  I'm currently using an Intel mSATA 80GB drive with generic said adapter which is working a treat.

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Thanks for your advice and comments, yea I don't have any other boards for testing sadly. I'm not familiar with Alchemy as I've only just gotten back into these legacy Macs after 20 years so it's a steep learning curve for me. The two adapters I tried are here:

 

StarTech.com IDE to SATA Hard Drive or Optical Drive Adapter Converter - 40-Pin PATA to 2.5" SATA HDD / SSD / ODD Converter

 

The StarTech one didn't work with my SSD, I've no reason to doubt the adaptor works though.

 

VGEBY Parallel ATA Pata IDE To Sata Serial ATA Hard Drive Converter For PC And Mac PATA TO SATA To 3.5 / 2.5 SATA Hard Disk DVD - Plug And Play

 

The Vgeby one was same deal, nada.

 

I'm not sure at all about the ground line cables, wish I knew! The StarTech adapter had a power plug on the board whilst the Vgeby one did not. I've not tried standard drives on the boards yet (well, I returned the StarTech one already but held onto the other one). I may give that a go!

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Byrd said:

It'd be an issue with the IDE bus of the 6500 not properly supporting the newer SSD standards.

 

If still keen I'd try another smaller, older SSD (< 80GB, Intel only) or consider a generic mSATA to IDE adapter, again coupled with a < 80GB Intel branded mSATA part.

 

I spent an age trying various drives in my 6500/TAM, even faster newer mechanical IDE drives 80GB+ did not play nice, and especially not a 120GB Toshiba mSATA drive.  I'm currently using an Intel mSATA 80GB drive with generic said adapter which is working a treat.

Thank you! I'd never have guessed these Macs would be so difficult to try and get an SSD into and running. Would you be a gent and give the details of the parts you have so I can order the same please? I'm not sure how 'old' the Intel mSATAs would need to be, do you mean the SSD 310 series? Wiki says they are the first mSATA drives Intel made. I can see a few on eBay that match that description. I don't need a lot of storage as I can always look to USB for that. Cheers bud :beige:

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Have you got a USB card working in that abomination already? If so you're very lucky. There's a big thread about PCI Bridge Chip incompatibilities with your board. It's mostly about FireWire/USB combo cards, but finding a compatible USB card can also be an ordeal.

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1 hour ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Have you got a USB card working in that abomination already? If so you're very lucky. There's a big thread about PCI Bridge Chip incompatibilities with your board. It's mostly about FireWire/USB combo cards, but finding a compatible USB card can also be an ordeal.

I only got the 6500 a week or so ago, it was running 8.6 with a 4-port USB, and OrangePC PC compatibility card taking up both PCI slots. Too bad I put on a clean installation of the OS, and in light of what you wrote I'm getting a sense of foreboding... I'll post what info I can about the USB card tomorrow if anyone else is interested too.

 

It maybe thought of as an abomination but damn is it clean. Zero yellowing to the case, zero marks or scratches and so far I've given it some love by installing a couple premium Noctua fans (one for the CPU and one for the PSU, which was moonship noisy, now purrs like a kitten). This was the 6500/275 Creative Suite model and all bits from the original purchase seem to be present and correct. A genuine, unabused example I'm very lucky.Not a bad deal for £40!

Edited by Bubheart'sDaddy73

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Very nice! At least you know you've got a compatible USB card. You'll probably want to swap out that Intel thingie for a VidCard that'll drive 1080p or whatever you're using on your main display.

 

Got Zip?

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7 minutes ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

Very nice! At least you know you've got a compatible USB card. You'll probably want to swap out that Intel thingie for a VidCard that'll drive 1080p or whatever you're using on your main display.

 

Got Zip?

Yep, zip drive installed and working. Ha yea the OrangePC card was the first to go the noise it made with it in scared my soul. Now I'm keeping eyes peeled for a Radeon 7000...and some hen's teeth.

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I'm running a generic PATA to SATA adapter from an ebay china seller and a 128GB SSD in my 6320 and it showed up no problem under MacOS 9. Not sure if these things even have jumpers to change settings. Just worked out of the box.

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10 minutes ago, netfreak said:

I'm running a generic PATA to SATA adapter from an ebay china seller and a 128GB SSD in my 6320 and it showed up no problem under MacOS 9. Not sure if these things even have jumpers to change settings. Just worked out of the box.

Lucky you! I don't suppose you could send me a link to the exact parts you used please...it would help me out a lot. Thanks :)

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This is the USB card that I mentioned above.

Manufacturer is: Entrega technologies inc.

Model name is: PCI-4U / 204-0013-001 Rev C.

Below that is my newly-acquired 6500, shame the Apple Design II speakers don't work, just hiss away when connected!

 

IMG_20180914_093615.jpg

IMG_20180914_093601.jpg

IMG_20180914_093136.jpg

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13 hours ago, Byrd said:

It'd be an issue with the IDE bus of the 6500 not properly supporting the newer SSD standards.

 

If still keen I'd try another smaller, older SSD (< 80GB, Intel only) or consider a generic mSATA to IDE adapter, again coupled with a < 80GB Intel branded mSATA part.

 

I spent an age trying various drives in my 6500/TAM, even faster newer mechanical IDE drives 80GB+ did not play nice, and especially not a 120GB Toshiba mSATA drive.  I'm currently using an Intel mSATA 80GB drive with generic said adapter which is working a treat.

The only adapters I'm seeing have 44-pins so would the Mac's 40-pin IDE cable still fit into the adapter's 44-pin connection, leaving 4 pins unused / reserved for power? Is an additional power adapter actually required to connect the Mac's Molex to the adapter board or can power be sent through IDE alone? Sorry for bombarding you with questions there's still some things that are unclear to me.

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The 44 pin adapters are meant for laptops so they're only going to work in those or the TAM.  The connectors are physically smaller and the pins spaced closer together so they wouldn't work on a 40 pin cable.

 

I put a "poor man's SSD" (IDE to Compact Flash adapter) in my PM4400, which seemed to be just as finicky a machine as my 6500 and it worked.  The adapter I used looked exactly the same as the one I've linked to below, since I'm guessing they all came from the same factory in China.  Then I just put a quality CF card in it (SanDisk Extreme Pro I want to say) and Drive Setup picked it right up and I was off and running.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/231272261623

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24 minutes ago, EvilCapitalist said:

Then I just put a quality CF card in it (SanDisk Extreme Pro I want to say) and Drive Setup picked it right up and I was off and running.

Did you leave the 4400's molex cable unplugged then?

Thanks for the link btw and the info - very appreciated!, that particular item is sitting in my Amazon basket...;) can you tell I'm desperate!

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No, I used an adapter to convert from the standard molex plug to the floppy style power connector, though I don't know whether that was necessary or not (I assumed it was).

 

Happy to help!  That 4400 was probably one of the biggest buckets of frustration I worked on in the past year.  So many things that should have worked just didn't and there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.

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55 minutes ago, EvilCapitalist said:

No, I used an adapter to convert from the standard molex plug to the floppy style power connector, though I don't know whether that was necessary or not (I assumed it was).

 

Happy to help!  That 4400 was probably one of the biggest buckets of frustration I worked on in the past year.  So many things that should have worked just didn't and there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.

Just ordered the following:

Wish me luck, thanks again for your recommendations! :quadra:

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

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9 hours ago, Bubheart'sDaddy73 said:

Lucky you! I don't suppose you could send me a link to the exact parts you used please...it would help me out a lot. Thanks :)

 

The one I used looks exactly like https://www.ebay.ca/itm/SATA-TO-PATA-IDE-Converter-Adapter-Plug-Play-7-15-Pin-3-5-2-5-SATA-HDD-DVD-GA/273368479057 and the SSD is some generic one I pulled from an old IBM server.

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I believe the main difference between the ATA ports in a 6320 and a 6500 is the PCI-based machines have an ATA-2 implementation that supports DMA transfers while the older ones only do PIO modes. I wonder if the reason the adapter works in the older machine and not the newer one is that all IDE drives *need* to be able to fall back to PIO (that's what they're supposed to come up in at boot time) but the adapter has issues falling back to the in-between pre-UltraATA DMA modes and ends up wandering off into la-la land when the 6500 asks it if it supports them.

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59 minutes ago, Gorgonops said:

I believe the main difference between the ATA ports in a 6320 and a 6500 is the PCI-based machines have an ATA-2 implementation that supports DMA transfers while the older ones only do PIO modes. I wonder if the reason the adapter works in the older machine and not the newer one is that all IDE drives *need* to be able to fall back to PIO (that's what they're supposed to come up in at boot time) but the adapter has issues falling back to the in-between pre-UltraATA DMA modes and ends up wandering off into la-la land when the 6500 asks it if it supports them.

I won't claim to intially understand much of that but it sounds reasonable (after a quick Google of the acronyms!), but the whole thing seems a crapshoot with some people getting a machine to work and others not...even with identical hardware. With how challening it is to get these old machines running, I still feel its worth it. Switching from the 6500 to even just my humble daily-driver (a relatively low-performance Hackintosh 4670K); feels like upgrading from a 1983 FSO to a 2018 Audi A8 (one assumes, I wouldn't know on either count...). But, its the software of that Era of the 90s (some of it chintz, some of it great) you can't capture it with an emulator. You just can't, it's a weak imitation. So the whole rigmarole is justified!

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It might just take the right magic combination of an adapter that handles all the fallback modes correctly combined with an SSD that's willing to communicate with a partner asking it to do weird things. Oh, who knows, it probably just depends on how Jupiter aligns with Mars when you plug it all together because Apple's implementations of some things are just plain idiosyncratic.

 

(I haven't owned any of the Beige "IDE Macs" but I can testify that weirdness with Apple's IDE implementations continued into the early Return of the Jobsi era. Both my iMac Rev. B and my Blue and White were really picky about hard disks, *especially* when you threw OS X into the mix. Some drives wouldn't work at all, others might work in OS 9 and would let you go through the OS X installer but show a big grey Ghostbusters-"NO" symbol on the screen when you rebooted... The same goes with RAM compatibility with those machines.)

Mildly-amusing anecdote: Back around 2004 or so we had a guy in our hardware lab at work who was testing software RAID setups on cheap Pentium 4 Dell servers which were examples of the first SATA-equipped generation. One day I noticed he was using PATA hard drives with SATA-host-to-PATA-drive adapters (the opposite of what you're doing) in some machines so I asked him why, and he said the adapters were a reliable way of generating SMART errors for the RAID driver to detect. Presumably these adapters have gotten better since then. Or maybe not.

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11 hours ago, Gorgonops said:

It might just take the right magic combination of an adapter that handles all the fallback modes correctly combined with an SSD that's willing to communicate with a partner asking it to do weird things. Oh, who knows, it probably just depends on how Jupiter aligns with Mars when you plug it all together because Apple's implementations of some things are just plain idiosyncratic.

 

(I haven't owned any of the Beige "IDE Macs" but I can testify that weirdness with Apple's IDE implementations continued into the early Return of the Jobsi era. Both my iMac Rev. B and my Blue and White were really picky about hard disks, *especially* when you threw OS X into the mix. Some drives wouldn't work at all, others might work in OS 9 and would let you go through the OS X installer but show a big grey Ghostbusters-"NO" symbol on the screen when you rebooted... The same goes with RAM compatibility with those machines.)

Mildly-amusing anecdote: Back around 2004 or so we had a guy in our hardware lab at work who was testing software RAID setups on cheap Pentium 4 Dell servers which were examples of the first SATA-equipped generation. One day I noticed he was using PATA hard drives with SATA-host-to-PATA-drive adapters (the opposite of what you're doing) in some machines so I asked him why, and he said the adapters were a reliable way of generating SMART errors for the RAID driver to detect. Presumably these adapters have gotten better since then. Or maybe not.

I think for my next vintage Mac I will consult the Tarot first then haha, but that business about the guy testing software RAID speaks volumes - makes me think yea, not much has changed either! You'd think that in the digital world of 1s and 0s there would be less to go wrong, not more (well, in my layman's perspective anyway). I purposefully try to keep myself in the grey area of not wanting to know too much, that way I'll have less to be anxious about. Ign0rance is bl1ss and all that! ;)

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16 hours ago, Gorgonops said:

One day I noticed he was using PATA hard drives with SATA-host-to-PATA-drive adapters (the opposite of what you're doing) in some machines so I asked him why, and he said the adapters were a reliable way of generating SMART errors for the RAID driver to detect. Presumably these adapters have gotten better since then. Or maybe not.

I remember you relating that  story when I was setting up my SATA only ATOM board to run off a PATA drive. Don't remember you mentioning exactly what errors he was looking to generate. What's a SMART error? Seems to me like an ATA interface polling a much faster drive should be less problematic. Funneling info the other way ought to be a lot less demanding, no?

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What brand of SSD are you using, Bubheart'sDaddy73? I've used Samsung and Patriot SSDs connected to SATA-IDE adapters connected to a Quadra 630, to SCSI-IDE adapters, then to an Amiga 1200, to a Quadra 605, and to a VAXstation 4000/60. Never a problem.

 

You are using Drive Setup, correct? You mention Disk Utility, but that's an OS X thing, not a Mac OS 8 or 9 thing. Some programs aren't meant to see certain drives. Apple HD SC, for instance, only sees drives on SCSI busses. Perhaps you can try another disk program (third party), perhaps.

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