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Trash80toHP_Mini

Three Slot Riser for 6400 - In search of the Mythical Slot C

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In another thread, trag mentioned that his SuperMac C600 had Slots A, B AND C along with CS2. Another tangent ensued because the SuperMac clone is based on the 6400's Alchemy architecture.

 

Long story short, got this riser in hopes that it would plug into Slot A and give me A, B, and the mythical C.

 

AIMB-RP30P_SPL.jpg

 

No joy there Slot mapping appears not to work that way.

 

ADVANTEC-Riser-Slot-Map-Table-00.thumb.JPG.3d8c6f6f37e52fe004d5d106cb29dc08.JPG

 

Plugging it into Slot A of the 6500 Mobo I get Slot A in connector PC11 which ought to be Slot B per my reading of the tables. Guess I have to find a board to test it in Slot D?

 

Black magic on the card.

 

ADVANTEC-Riser-Component-00.thumb.JPG.71402c1a4975a81c4035ff1916a83fb1.JPG

 

ADVANTEC-Riser-Solder-00.thumb.JPG.3b6a2b24e2e565c53dab5375b9de1f0d.JPG

 

Genesis of the tangent:

 

Gotta organize the Slot info research I did in that thread to post here. It appears that the swaperoonies on this PCB align with the pinout info I found. If anyone has a suggestion about how the table on the riser works, please let me know. Dunno if my interpretation is at all accurate. :mellow:

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@trag I'm already thinking about just in case workaround possibilities, your C600 wouldn't have crown jewels on a card in the ROM DIMM slot perchance?

 

TAM-Slot-C1.jpg

 

This TattleTech report has me thinking that there is support for Slot C1 in the 6400, Apple appears not to have hobbled it in ROM, trusting the 6400 setup to do that a/o just not giving a schiznit about expansion capability one way or another. Comparing ROM dumps between 6400 and C600 would be good to do up front. If Slot C1 doesn't show up after much blood, sweat and tears are shed on the bench it would definitely be time to compare dumps and try a C600 ROM card hack in a freshly installed DIMM socket in the 64oo.

 

Links from other thread:

 

Apple Developer Connection: PCI Card Services

Designing PCI Cards and Drivers for Power Macintosh Computers 1996

Revised Edition 3/26/99 has corrections, additions and irrelevant New World complications.

Designing PCI Cards and Drivers for Power Macintosh Computers

 

http://www.kennedybrandt.com/supermac_insider/support/downloads/C600UserGuide.zip

 

 

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On 8/8/2018 at 5:20 PM, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

@trag I'm already thinking about just in case workaround possibilities, your C600 wouldn't have crown jewels on a card in the ROM DIMM slot perchance?

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the above means.   Can you be more specific.

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Sorry, are  your C600 ROMs on a DIMM or on the motherboard? Idly wondering about last ditch effort in testing for Slot C function in Apple's implementation of Alchemy. If all else fails. Testing my (standard cheapo type) riser that works in the BG3 with its jumper card setup that's been modified to work without those connections to other mobo slots might need to be tried with the C600 ROM in the 6360 it won't work with its stock ROM.

 

Probably not a likely scenario however:

 

1 - TattleTech's PCI Slot report "sees" and lists (unimplemented) Slot C as being in the hardware of the my 6500 board.

-  -  possibly polling the bridge IC to find it supporting three slots?

 

2 - Apple's use license of the "crown jewels" almost surely forbade a clone maker's fiddling with ROM?

-  -  Black Box documentation of ROM with revocation of license for disassembly violation clause?

 

Step one of the process as I now see it unfolding will be to duplicate Apple's twin slot riser on the "simple three slot rackmount riser card." That may be done as simply as patching line values from Slot A pins to the "nubbin daughter card riser" header inputs to mimic the Apple riser. Just doing that completes reverse engineering the Slot A to B transition for the two slot TAM riser PCB design along with the low rider two slot riser for the 6360/5400/5500 drawer.

 

Step two will be wire wrapping connections on the headers for the nubbin daughtercard Slot C from Slot B headers to mimic the (nubbin jumpers not present) much more complicated ADVANTEC riser's Slot ID +1 function.

 

edit: I've probably gotta post pics of the "standard" rackmount riser/nubbin card jumper setup to make the jibberish above comprehensible. :-/

 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
the usual

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Well, that was a bust. Took a few hours to find all the bits needed to get the 9500 board up and running on the bench to no avail. For whatever reason the fourth slot which should be Slot D1 shows up as Slot D2. Never seen nor heard of such a thing? First test of the ADVANTECH board didn't work in what the Tables on the card should have been Slot C. Didn't really expect it to work. I wonder what that ID designation comes up as in the QS? Another time perhaps.

 

Buzzed the nubbin board header connectors on the "standard" three slot riser to the soldertail pins of its PCI connector last night. Gotta buzz those pins the 6400/6500 risers and try to determine what's up with that next.

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Can't figure this table out at all from the results I got for the 9500.

 

ADVANTEC-Riser-Slot-Map-Table-00.JPG

 

Bottom slot works wherever I try it, but only at the host slot's ID and the top two slots are just not there. It even passes on the curious oddball D2, E2, F2 Slot ID. Looks like a pair of standard PCI bridge ICs from TI on the board. Haven't checked yet, but a bus 1 and bus 2 suffix makes sense. Does or did the PC world do that kind of thing?

 

The ADVANTECH board is now relegated to $35 curiosity status, oh well. Gotta put one of the old PC boards on the bensh some day to play with it.

 

Looking at the 6400/6500 riser from the jumper cards of the "standard" three slot riser ATM.

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Hey, jt.  I was traveling last week.  I'll try to pull some C600 info this weekend.  There's one in the garage that hasn't reached the attic yet, so it's possible I'll remember and get to it.

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I pulled the riser card from the C600 this weekend.  Here's a photo:

 

C600_hyriser00.thumb.jpg.02ecc95d2519a29e813ad72dd7e5b024.jpg

 

There is no ROM or any other logic on board.  It's a dumb board.   The connector on the right is to the floppy drive.  The white tape in the top middle is covering the COMMII Slot.  I don't know why.   The connector at the bottom has 194 pins, 97 on each side.    The pins aren't numbered in silk screen, so for my purposes, I numbered them from left to right on the front.   On the back, I did not flip the card over.   Pretend you're looking through the board, oriented as above, and the back pins are left to right, 98 - 194.     So pin 98 is opposite pin 1.  Pin 194 is opposite pin 97, in my system.

 

Pins run:  1 - 42, 43 - 87, 88 - 97;    98 - 139, 140 - 184, 185 - 194

where commas are the slot notches.

 

I found the following:

 

Pin 114         Slot C interrupt

Pin 113         Slot A interrupt

Pin 17           Slot B interrupt

Pin 76           Slot A REQ

Pin 77           Slot B REQ

Pin 79           Slot C REQ

Pin 174         Slot A GNT

Pin 175         Slot B GNT

Pin 177         Slot C GNT

Pin 153         Slot A IDSEL, ADD 13

Pin 55           Slot B IDSEL, ADD 14

Pin 151         Slot C IDSEL, ADD 15

 

I did not have a pinout for the comm slot handy, although I think it's posted around here somewhere.   However, the resources list above occupy sequential pins on the edge connector.   This isn't obvious when they are 113, 17, 114, but 17 is opposite 114.   And the gaps in sequences like 76, 77, 79 are because of intervening gnd or power pins.

 

Anyway for the first three above, I found a pin on the comm slot which connected to what ought to be the next pin in the sequence of interrupts, GNTs or REQs.  I didn't check IDSEL.   So I strongly suspect it's an independent PCI slot.    Umax did some unnatural stuff on the S900, where the sold a combo U2 LVD SCSI card with 10/100 ethernet on board.   It only worked in slot 1 of the S900 and there was an extra little connector at the end of the PCI slot to provide extra signals to support the ethernet portion.  Then there was a hacked to the gills driver that added an OF script when made the ethernet portion appear as slot E, which is some kind of special legacy slot in the firmware or some such.  

 

But it wouldn't make any sense for the C600 to use a similar system because anybody's card might be installed in the comm slot.  The E100 card, as it was called, was the only card that could use that extra connector in the S900.

 

Do the PM6400 and PM6500 use the same 194 pin connector for their riser cards?

Edited by trag

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OK, NOW we're cooking! Thanks, trag. I'm back from my sister's wedding after 12hrs of driving followed by 12 hrs of sleep. WONDERFUL bit of work you did while I was gone. If I wake up again any time soon (coffee's not doing the trick) I'll take a serious look at your data.

 

IIRC, I confirmed that a standard 32 bit PCI card works as if in Slot A1 on the Riser when directly inserted in the 6400/6500 logic board's riser slot. Setting the Digital STARION Alchemy/Gazelle testbed back up on the bench to verify that might be a good bit of sleepyhead RetroPlay for tonight.

 

Not sure I'd recommend trying that in your C600 board's slot even if you could though. Is the pincount for the initial section of the card and the following portion of the center section identical to Slot A1 on the riser? Looks like it's keyed very differently.

 

Deciphering your numerology tonight ain't gonna happen. If you buzzed it, verified it and tried it, I'd bet it'd work on a simple key correcting adapter though. No reason to buck the PCI  convention and every reason to stick to it for basic troubleshooting with that simple adapter and PCI card at that level. Very curious about that extended center portion and the CS-2 connections. Table time  .  .  .  not tonight.

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Verified the Riser Slot ID/function as Slot A1 and that the CS-2 NIC is a PCI Card, discrete or a  "hardware enabled" PseudoSlot implemented at Slot ID E1.

 

VidCard_in_RiserSlot-CS2NIC.thumb.jpg.4ea4df70b1f4e441cb5d86da7fb1dcf2.jpg

 

CS2 - specifically the PCI Bus Communications Slot 4 pinout is in this post:

 

Pin 95 is labeled INT~ which has me thinking it's the Slot E interrupt. Which again has me wondering about the possibilities of a four slot riser?

 

Gotta look at the PCI bridge setup, we've got A1, B1, possibly C1 of the C600, CS2 at E1 and the ATI ChipSet at F1 on the logic board.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that an interrupt for Slot D1 may have gone missing somewhere? [}:)]

 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
typos

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6500 Block Diagram

 

2077795178_6500BlockDiagram.thumb.JPG.303a5cafe595fa11817f97fb9bcd1940.JPG

 

Looks like A, B, and E run off the PSX+ Bus Bridge ASIC in the 6500.

 

6360/6400/5400 have the 40MHz PSX Bus Bridge ASIC, I'm wondering if torquing PSX up to 50MHz as PSX+ level is the root of Gazelle's PCI evils?

 

584327818_5400BlockDiagram.thumb.JPG.be735dc52c578050d7106ac3fc700ebb.JPG

 

Is PSX the controller in your C600, trag? I can't imagine it's not a standard, licensed Apple part?

 

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Noticed a couple of things:

 

oddity: There's no indication of the simple Video Out board for the 5400 or the far more complex board for the 6500 Video Out/Subwoofer.

 

Amazingly: The soldered RAM does the opposite of Apple's customary hobbling of a memory bank. In Alchemy, it's apparently configured as a third DIMM, giving it a higher Memory Ceiling than the high performance Gazelle Architecture!

 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
typos

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@trag is there any chance you could do a high res scan of your C600 riser and maybe take a higher res photo of the component side that shows all the traces clearly? I'm a big fan of taking PCB pics in the shade on a "Kodak Sky" day. That's a bright day with a just enough even haze to act as a diffusor balloon for the sun.

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I've been playing with cards in the 6500 bench setup.

 

Adaptec AHA-2930CU Mac is an Apple (Fast/Narrow?) SCSI-2 part that works a treat with one of my standard SCSI drives. It'd be just about perfect coupled with the SCSI2SD Model 6. Too bad that won't fit in a TAM, but fab for the other Gazelle machines. I'll need to use set up one of my SCA Savvios to mess around with as a boot disk.

 

Sonnet Tempo ATA133 shows up in ASP and TattleTech as does the HDD, but the drive is listed as unmounted. 6400 testing is up next.

 

Is there an IDE utility the likes of of SCSI probe that might mount the disk from a Gazelle board? :huh:

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2 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

@trag is there any chance you could do a high res scan of your C600 riser and maybe take a higher res photo of the component side that shows all the traces clearly? I'm a big fan of taking PCB pics in the shade on a "Kodak Sky" day. That's a bright day with a just enough even haze to act as a diffusor balloon for the sun.

 

I don't have a working scanner these days.    The glass fell out of my old Umax mumble 600S.   I tried to fix it with 3M 2-sided tape, as that is what it was originally held in with, but that failed.  I should have just epoxied it back in place, but I threw it out before that thought occurred to me.

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Heh! I didn't either until recently. My HP AIO Ink Jet won't scan because the ink cartridges are out of date. ::) LEXMARK Pro915 from the grlf scans, but is VERY annoying dire warnings that it will damage itself if I don't buy $100 worth of cartridges and won't go to sleep until I do  .  .  .  so I turn off the power strip between scans.

 

Until very recently I was using the nice AIO Laser Printer/Copier/Scanner/FAX machine at work that emails nice .PDFs to me at home. Got one of those at work? [;)]

 

I've got a MICROTEK e300 from the mid-nineties to test and a couple of their ScanMaker4 8X10 transparency capable scanners to recap and build one good working unit.

 

One day! :lol:

 

 

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YAY! I found my packed to the gills 6360 board while I was putting things away and looking for the Quadra 630 to try out in the BenchMac test setup. Hooked up the original HDD and the L2 Crescendo/400/1M fired right up! [:D]

 

One of the pair of 400/512s from Sonnet's clearance still tested DOA in the tested good 6360 rig though. Whatever. Hoping to find that &(*&$%^%@^ Quadra 630 board for one last  playtime session before I get down to the business of borking something in this project. That'll definitely be one of the Gazelle boards, I've only got the one 6360 and oneof the  6400 Alchemy boards. I need those for the two TEMPOtrio IDE/USB/FW combo boards.

 

Next to get the QS up and running on the rolling standing desk to start noodling out the slot data in a format I can see. Can't grok tables. :blink:

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The first difference between Slots A and B on the 6400 riser is plain as day on the solder side.

 

SlotSearch-001.thumb.jpg.6cb528f401174b51f81c468576983cee.jpg

 

REQ for Slot B is supplied from the logic board from a pin that's RESERVED in the PCI Specification. Now it's time to meter more oddities.

 

SlotSearch-001.PDF

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On 8/20/2018 at 12:40 PM, trag said:

C600_hyriser00.thumb.jpg.02ecc95d2519a29e813ad72dd7e5b024.jpg

 

The connector at the bottom has 194 pins, 97 on each side.    The pins aren't numbered in silk screen, so for my purposes, I numbered them from left to right on the front.   On the back, I did not flip the card over.   Pretend you're looking through the board, oriented as above, and the back pins are left to right, 98 - 194.     So pin 98 is opposite pin 1.  Pin 194 is opposite pin 97, in my system.

 

Pins run:  1 - 42, 43 - 87, 88 - 97;    98 - 139, 140 - 184, 185 - 194

where commas are the slot notches.

 

I found the following:

 

Pin 114         Slot C interrupt

Pin 113         Slot A interrupt

Pin 17           Slot B interrupt

Pin 76           Slot A REQ

Pin 77           Slot B REQ

Pin 79           Slot C REQ

Pin 174         Slot A GNT

Pin 175         Slot B GNT

Pin 177         Slot C GNT

Pin 153         Slot A IDSEL, ADD 13

Pin 55           Slot B IDSEL, ADD 14

Pin 151         Slot C IDSEL, ADD 15

 

Wow, that pinout is nothing like any standard of which I'm aware. Is that implemented on a single connector on the logic board or abutted connectors?

 

On 8/20/2018 at 12:40 PM, trag said:

Anyway for the first three above, I found a pin on the comm slot which connected to what ought to be the next pin in the sequence of interrupts, GNTs or REQs.  I didn't check IDSEL.   So I strongly suspect it's an independent PCI slot.    Umax did some unnatural stuff on the S900, where the sold a combo U2 LVD SCSI card with 10/100 ethernet on board.   It only worked in slot 1 of the S900 and there was an extra little connector at the end of the PCI slot to provide extra signals to support the ethernet portion.  Then there was a hacked to the gills driver that added an OF script when made the ethernet portion appear as slot E, which is some kind of special legacy slot in the firmware or some such.  

Slot 1 = another connector on the Logic Board or ComSlot on the riser?

 

Slot E1 is the normal location of the CS2 EtherNet card. I imagine the OF script would be a system patch for the SCSI half of the card. I wonder how TattleTech reports the SCSI setup, if at all? A parallel might be the Futura II VidCard/EtherNet daughtercard combo which shared the same NuBus Slot ID?

 

Have you run TattleTech to see if the SCSI portion might be located at Slot D1? The PCI report might show D1 as available without having the card installed. D1 is a curious gap in the ID sequence of Alchemy. It's probably more likely that the SCSI implementation shares E1 though.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 12:40 PM, trag said:

But it wouldn't make any sense for the C600 to use a similar system because anybody's card might be installed in the comm slot.  The E100 card, as it was called, was the only card that could use that extra connector in the S900.

That extra connector has how many pins? ComSlot2 connector is shorted six connections of a PCI connector and a gaggle of connections are dedicated to the CS2 modem. So the second connector probably fleshes CS2 out so as to support the full PCI spec?

 

On 8/20/2018 at 12:40 PM, trag said:

Do the PM6400 and PM6500 use the same 194 pin connector for their riser cards?

Not even close. It's a standard PCI connector, but at least one reserved pins isn't, it's a direct connection to the REQ pin of Slot B1. INT A and INT C are connected to A5 which is +5V holding the coding high on Slot B1.

 

Haven't worked on Slot A1 yet other than to successfully install a VidCard directly into the MoBo sans riser.

 

All RA Rackmount risers I've tested appear to function as slot A1, with one possible exception. Can't put my hands on it for testing, hopefully it will turn up and not be the same card as another I'm trying to re-locate in hopes of modifying it to Slot B1 function. If/when I can do that, I should be able to spec the TwinSlot riser for TAM and the other single slot riser limited Macs. After that I can start playing Slot C1 mix-n-match games.

 

When you have a chance, could you buzz the connections between connectors for Slots C1, B1 and A1 to identify which lines on C1 are unconnected to either of the other two. Fifteen drop out between A1 and B1. I'll post a table when I can sort a couple of things out. The dropouts should be located between A6/B6 and A19/B19. The only outlier will almost certainly be the REQ line at A26. Which "Reserved" line Apple intended (provided?) for that one on the logic board riser slot is the mystery.

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At long last, I've rendered the mess of boards, tables, doodles and pinouts spinning around in my head down into a single markup sheet! :blink:

 

ABCE-RiserProj-000.thumb.jpg.1927e5b98c67f0d44fcd815f126c994b.jpg

 

ABCE-RiserProj-000.PDF

 

@trag any chance you can shed some light on how INT A-D are implemented on a logic board so as to define a Slot ID?

 

If we can noodle the mystery of those four lines out, aside from the 3.3V sense lines, the other three inputs are available on the CommSlot to implement Slot E1 on a riser. If I can't find REQ/SEL for C1 on the 6x00 connector, it may come to that, but four slots would be better. [:)]

 

 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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In any given PCI slot, Apple has traditionally (in this generation, don't know about Intel and late PPC stuff) wired all four INTs together.   So there's a single unique INT per PCI slot.   Every slot has it's own unique INT.   So, when the interrupt manager (e.g. Grand Central on X500/X600) receives an interrupt, it knows exactly which slot it came from.    So, my guess is that  your PCI header on the 6400/6500 logic board runs a unique INT to each of the four INT pins in the header slot, but then runs just one of those four to each PCI slot on the riser card.  So each PCI slot on the riser card gets its own unique INT from the header slot and uses that one INT for all four INT pins in the slot.    

 

They would still need to steal some unused pins in that PCI header to provide Bus Grant and Bus Request lines to each of the riser card slots.

 

 

ASIDE:  This actually is a terrible way to do things, because the PCI spec. includes provisions for PCI-PCI Bridges to expand one PCI slot into up to 16 additional slots.    If one has installed a PCI-PCI Bridge all of its sub slots use the interrupt/interrupts available in the original slot.   If the OS is expecting to identify the slot from the unique interrupt, this doesn't support the spec. very well.     Apple's implementation does support a single layer of PCI-PCI Bridge, as far as I can tell, but it fails when one tries to have a bridge behind a bridge, which is also supported in the specification.   I suspect this Apple bug is related to how they rely on the uniqueness of their interrupts, but I'm not certain.

 

They should be identifying slots purely through the IDSEL system.

Edited by trag

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@trag Thanks, that explains quite a bit. Neither of the upper slots on the "Black Magic" riser will work when it's installed in any of the Beige G3's PCI slots. Not implementing PCI slots as intended in that manner jibes with Apple's substandardization history. Gotta recheck it. ISTR the Slot ID being passed on from the motherboard to the bottom slot, but I forget.

 

ISTR there being a total cutout between the four INT lines of Slot B1 from both Slot A1 AND the edge connector. I'll be rechecking that next.

 

Methinks they may be using the unique (hijacked reserved contact) SEL line (Init Device Select) as the Slot ID mechanism

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All four INT lines are tied together on Slot B1. They connect to the edgecard at A9  .  .  .  which is RESERVED of course! :approve:

 

That's two down now, just four more RESERVED lines  .  .  .  in my reserve. [:D]

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@trag I think I may have cracked stealing Slot E1 for my multiple slot riser from CSII?

 

Do you think the INT~ line on the ComSlot II connector could be the equivalent of the unified INT A-D lines of the substandard Mac PCI Slot implementation?

 

Slot_E1_000.thumb.jpg.18021376145879dfca9295d6f0495261.jpg

 

Slot_E1_000.PDF

 

Slot C1 lines may or may not be present on the 6x00 riser connector, but If I can implement Slot E1 on an A/B header with nubbin card jumpers from CSII as a Mini PCI Slot on the solder side of the riser as I've diagrammed elsewhere, that'd be three slots in every Mac of this the series, including the TAM.

 

Gotta noodle out the 3.3V lines, figured on doing that last. Got that info handy in your noggin?

 

Edit: Configuring Slot B1 requires hacking into the generic three slot riser's "reserved" edgecard contacts. I've got a nubbin card made from a LittleRedRiser set to wire up CSII for a first run/hail Mary as it's much easier to implement. Any help on 3.3V voodoo would be much appreciated.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
typos

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