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JDW

Modern PSU for the SE/30

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Yeah, me neither.  The casing of the old power supply has holes all around the perimeter, and with the existing fan pulling air in from the bottom and exhaust out the top, we should be golden.  The nice thing about the MeanWell is that there is not so many wires like there is with the mini ITX.  Makes it easy and clean to make.

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Again, it's spec'd to be mounted horizontally to a 14" x 14" x 1mm metal plate in a much bigger box.

 

360x360.JPG

 

Not sure it'll be happy living on its side in Apple's tin, but I'll shut up now. [;)]

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4 hours ago, JDW said:

No Ethernet on the Grayscale SE/30 though since I don't know how to make it fit.  Do you?

I'll just leave this here:

 

IMG_3517.JPG

 

 

I am running all my SE/30s on the stock power supply still. Even with the big card stack and a real spinning SCSI hard drive.

They are all Sony PSUs and only one is recapped I think. No issues so far.

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Not worried about specific ratings, that's a hint as to how they expect it to be employed. I'm just sayin' it's not really meant for the purpose or orientation in which we're planning to place it. But that doesn't mean it really matters, there's a whole lotta slop in the parts/spec.

 

You up already, Bolle, what time is it around there?

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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2 minutes ago, joethezombie said:

Bolle, every time I see that, it brings a tear to my eye!

Bolle and jt, WE DID IT!  :)

 

Now if I can only get two of them!?! I am dying to get ethernet working on my SE/30s. 

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2 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

You up already, Bolle, what time is it around there?

Got up at 5:30am and first thing I did was checking in here while still in bed ;)

 

2 hours ago, omidimo said:

Now if I can only get two of them!?!

You're on the list, as said I will get another batch and also have some of the IIsi adapters done.

Time to work on those things is sparse at this time of the year due to outdoor activities being #1 priority right now but I will get back at the adapters. Promised ;)

 

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What a wonderful discussion has been taking place during the time I was away from my computer!

 

A thousand thanks for the photos.

 

So...

 

Is the consensus that the Mini ITX FSP220-60LE power supply is best to use inside a stock metal PSU enclosure convection cooled, or are you gentlemen saying the ARTMIX dual board setup is preferred?  Or is it a draw? :-)

 

If a draw, the cheaper solution is the FSP220-60LE.

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On the ITX topic, I found this which seems like an interesting approach:

http://bylenga.ddns.net/index.php?page=SE_ATX.php

 

Recognizing the large number of wires on the ITX supply, I might try:

1) Cut out some of the extra wire on the ATX connector wiring harness (just cut, splice & solder and shrinkwrap)

2) Build an ATX to SE/30 wire harness like the gentleman did on the website above

3) Rewire the ITX power plug to the plug on the back of the SE/30

4) Lop off any unused wires.

 

I'm not sure if the SE/30 Power switch can or should be directly wired to the power plug and keep the PS_ON# grounded or if the power switch on the Mac should just ground the PS_ON# wire.

 

Using an off the shelf power supply should be easier than recapping the existing power supply.  

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This is the setup described above:

 

Finished%20Product.jpg

 

 

Here's the FlexATX PSU I've been working with for fitment into the stock IIsi sheet metal that I'm thinking might be also be a good fit for this project:

 

FlexATX-in-SE30-can.thumb.JPG.5ee0ec97f50e3e9f7036bfe88d1a1362.JPG

 

Mo' betta pics from many angles in this post and a later one in my thread about the minitower spinoff of the U2BG3 Rackmount project. The solid "top" of the PSU in this position being the majority of the hot/cool zone air dam setup. Pics there show the air intake perforations three of the six sides of the PSU which are engineered to provide optimal cooling of the heatsinks and components within the retained PSU enclosure. They're all within the "cool zone. Using only 100W/300W for the SE/30, the temperature controlled fan might silent within the baffles of the muffler enclosure.

 

SQUID-TrapDoor-01.JPG

 

Angle of PSU is only an approximation for the pic. The HDD mounting sled bolted up to the side of the PSU is in the way, but the pic'll do for a quick illustration. With minimal, simple sheet metal work, the fan can be angled straight up. Voltage converter would be mounted with PCB solder side up, components down in the front near the wire grommet.

 

What's the voltage converter doing anyway, why is it necessary? If it supplies a value between 5V and 12V a Buck Step-down converter ought to be more efficient than a step-up converter. As trag said, we're heavy on the 12V rail and light on the 5V rail to begin with.

 

 

edit: now that I think of it, the larger volume hot/coo zone setup might cause a bit of Venturi effect where the airflow is pinched as it passes through the PSU enclosure. Even a tiny bit of increased of cooling air velocity from that effect would be a welcome reduction in fan activity.

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
the usual

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On 5/4/2018 at 7:14 AM, techknight said:

I wonder if you could use a small form factor ATX power supply. Then from that point you could do the soft-power mod. 

What is the “soft power mod” you and Joe spoke of?

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This post by Wally back in 2012 details technical requirements of the SE/30 PSU (please read it).

 

Note that Wally says there is a “4A peak load” requirement on the +12v output, and the separate +12v SWEEP has a tight +/-10mV voltage tolerance (which sounds a bit too tight to me, so maybe he read the book wrong).

 

As mentioned earlier, ARTMIX advertises the following specs on their 2009 edition PSU:

 

5V @14.5A

+12V @3.75A

+12V SWEEP @>3A

-12V not listed, but shows as 0.5A in photo of 2006 model label

 

Thanks to Joe, we know the 2009 ARTMIX PSU contains a Mean Well PPT-125B that shows these specs:

 

5V @11.5A

+12V @3.00A

-12V @0.5A

 

ARTMIX has posted the 5V@“14.5A” lie/error since 2009.

 

If +12V really does peak at 4A, Like Wally said, depending on the duration of the peak, it would seem most prudent to have a +12V output that is capable of 4A or more.

 

The ARTMIX PSU also uses a little custom PCB built with a LT1268 switch-mode controller. If ARTMIX used the Typical Application example circuit shown in the LT1268 datasheet, then the little PCB converts “up to 1.5A” of the Mean Well’s 5V@11.5A output to become the +12V SWEEP output, leaving 10A for the 5V output.

 

If so, that would be the second lie/error, since the 2009 ARTMUX PSU advertises “12V SWEEP @>3A.”

 

If indeed there is a +/-10mV tolerance on the SWEEP as Wally contended back in 2012, the LT1268 is almost certain NOT to satisfy such as the peak-to-peak ripple is likely more than 20mV.  But even if we assume there is no 10mV tolerance requirement on the SWEEP output, the fact remains that the specifications advertised for the ARTMIX PSU are inaccurate, and the +12V@3A output may be inadequate. These are important considerations for anyone considering purchase of the ARTMIX PSU, especially because it sells for a whopping $200+shipping.

 

Here are the specs of the stock SONY SE/30 PSU (CR-44, 699-5047) for reference:

 

5V @6.0A

+12V @2.1A

+12V SWEEP @1.25A

-12V @0.5A

 

Special thanks to omidimo for the lovely photos and kind words about my Flickr photos, and to joethezombie for excellent info, and to superjer2000 for alerting me to that old thread and Wally’s post, and to the rest of you contributing to this thread.

 

Right now, I am leaning toward the purchase of the power supply used and recommended by joethezombie.  What’s funny is that ARTMIX could offer a better product and still make a huge profit just by purchasing the FSP220-60LE for use in a 2018 edition SE/30 PSU!  Have a look at the specs:

 

FSP220-60LE

 

5V @16A

+12V1 @16A

+12V2 (SWEEP) @10A

-12V @0.8A

 

Sadly, the only "economically priced" FSP220-60LE I see sold on Amazon Japan (relevant to me because I live in Japan) is clearly a Chinese version of the original that is not the same as the original.  Have a look:

 

https://www.amazon.co.jp/ユニバーサル小型シャーシ-FSP200-50PLA-FSP180-50PLA-FSP250-50PNA-1台の機械、産業制御、カラオケ機、キャッシュレジスター、POS機械、1Uサーバー、NASサーバー/dp/B077BR1W2Q/

 

 

Lastly, please let me know what that “soft mod” is.  Thanks.

Edited by JDW

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I was looking at the FSP220-60LE but ended up just buying an Antec MT-352 for $71CAD which has the following specs:

5V @ 20A

12V1 @ 18A

12V2 @ 18A

-12V @ 0.8A

 

I also bought some 10 pin modular plugs that I'm hoping will fit the SE30 analog board, 24 pin ATX plugs and the relevant modular plug pins.  When it gets here, I'll assess if I try to mount the Power supply in its current case somehow or take it out and try to put the guts into the old power supply case.  I'm pretty excited about this project, I hadn't even considered the possibility of doing anything besides recapping the old supply. If it works, I'll do my second SE/30 and a couple of SEs that I have as I bought enough connectors and misc. parts to do ~10 units.  I'm not sure if there will be any concerns regarding lack of load on the supply. 

Edited by superjer2000

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p.259 of GttMFH2e to which wally was referring says:

 

Parameter                               Specification

+12 volt sweep supply          11.5V - 12.5V

 

Ripple and noise are beyond my ken, but it makes sense to me that while the sweep voltage can vary within the spec above, whatever the value may be at any given time between 11.5V and 12.5V it shouldn't waver from within the tight limits he posted to prevent the raster image from appreciably shrinking or expanding in the user's view while the Mac's banging on the other rails of the power supply for whatever purposes.

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2 hours ago, JDW said:

Lastly, please let me know what that “soft mod” is.  Thanks.

 

There was a speculation thread at one time I can't locate now (perhaps another lost soul?) about converting an SE/30 to use soft-power on and off like his big boxen brethren.  This was thought possible because the documentation on the PDS slot of the SE/30 specifies on pin C1, the /PFW signal is present.  Normally /PFW is always high, but when one selects Shut Down from the menu, it turns low to indicate Power Fail Warning to any cards connected to the bus.

 

Modern ATX/ITX power supplies are always on, and supply +5V standby voltage at all times.  After an ATX conversion, this standby voltage could be used for the power key on the keyboard, and turn the SE/30 on automatically when pressed.  (For the supply to turn fully on, we ground the PS-ON pin.)

 

Now that that SE/30 is on, pin C1 on the PDS slot could then be monitored for when the Shut Down command is issued, and automatically power down the power supply back to standby voltage.

 

Unfortunately, the documentation proved incorrect, and the /PFW signal never goes low on the SE/30.  This made a lot of individuals sad.  Speculation occurred we could pull that signal from where it originates, but the details are lost, or my search-fu is faulty.  I haven't looked further to see if that signal is present at another location on the logicboard.

 

 

 

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Can't really see, is the rocker switch missing from omidimo's PSU? I don't like leaving anything plugged in and "always on" when it comes to hacked equipment.

 

Would it be possible to use the standard switch to cut AC power on and off as usual, but add a circuit to provide the momentary blip needed to actuate ATX powerup when the main switch is flipped to the on position? Is such a thing even necessary?

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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Nah, the rocker switch is still there, its just below the power plug socket, hiding behind the heatsink.  I permanently shunted the PS-ON pin to ground, and just use the rocker switch like normal, no momentary blip needed.

 

EDIT: Just for clarity, the rocker switch is used as mains switch, just like normal.  When it's off, there is no standby voltage because there is no voltage period.

 

Tomorrow I shall open it up and take pictures of the standoffs, the power connecter I built, and how to shunt the PS-ON so it turns on/off with the rocker switch.

Edited by joethezombie

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6 hours ago, superjer2000 said:

I was looking at the FSP220-60LE but ended up just buying an Antec MT-352 for $71CAD which has the following specs:

5V @ 20A

12V1 @ 18A

12V2 @ 18A

-12V @ 0.8A

Specs are nice, but the price isn't so nice for me in Japan.  Amazon lists the same PSU for roughly US$135. :-(

 

4 hours ago, joethezombie said:

 

There was a speculation thread at one time I can't locate now (perhaps another lost soul?) about converting an SE/30 to use soft-power on and off like his big boxen brethren... Unfortunately, the documentation proved incorrect, and the /PFW signal never goes low on the SE/30.  

I use a Sophisticated Circuits PowerKey Pro 600 ADB, so I technically don't need Soft Power in the SE/30.  However, the PowerKey only works in System 7 or higher, so if a hardware solution for the SE/30 could be found that allowed Soft Power in System 6 too, that would be superb!

 

4 hours ago, joethezombie said:

Tomorrow I shall open [the FSP220-60LE] up and take pictures of the standoffs, the power connecter I built, and how to shunt the PS-ON so it turns on/off with the rocker switch.

I look forward to seeing those photos, Joe.  But basically it seems you leave the FSP220-60LE's power switch attached but always in the ON position (which is obviously needed), and then you shorted something called "PS-ON" to ground so that the SE/30's power switch will turn it ON/OFF.  Understood.  The rest of your implementation will hopefully become clearer when I see your forthcoming photos.  Thanks!

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Just opened up my SE's Sony PSU, never realized the side of the case acts as a heat spreader. Have we had any schematic data developed on the Sony?

 

Need a pic of the PSU you're considering right about here in the thread. [;)]

 

The following is based on my meager understanding of what I've seen in a couple of ATX PSUs I've cracked for my IIsi PSU rebuild:

 

Been thinking about tolerances on sweep voltage, can't we add a bigass cap to one of the PSU's 12V output lines to even it out to meet those tight variance specs?

 

Looks like there'll be enough area above the PSU to mount a PCB to the side with that cap, joe's shunt, headers for plugging in the stock AC connector harness with its ferrite ring. A fused passthru with solder points for the AC wiring coming from the PSU connector/whatever would be at that end. Bigass cap wherever and at the front of the PCB you'd have solder points for clipped wiring from the PSU outputs. Desoldering redundant leads from the PSU PCB seems like the easiest route to cleanup.

 

Dunno if it's just me, but for a step by step howto, showing which lines to clip to specified lengths and where to solder them into thruholes on an adapter PCB seems easiest.  I'd think it'd have to be the most reliable form of wiring connectionc (HATE splicing) and would provide easily defined test points for a novice to meter.

 

Step by step instructions for desoldering redundant wiring from the PSU would definitely be safest (HATE hanging wires with electrical tape on 'em, even at low DC voltages) and wiring clutter reduction would reduce resistance to convection airflow. That horrid wiring dam at the front of the Artmix PSU give me the heebie-jeebies.

 

Is there a PCB house that'll do inexpensive runs of the thick, single sided PCBs with thick copper traces for PSU current? We can gang several of the narrow adapter PCBs on one blank.

 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini
the usual

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@Bolle and joe: have we got data on where /PFW goes on the ProtoCache1 adapter design and what it might be doing? If it's not really used for anything other than stabilizing the signal on the adapter side the source of the pullup ought to be easily identified on the two schematics we've got available. Adding the pullup to the full height adapter would isolate it nicely for motherboard side playtime. [;)]

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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