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boitoy1996

Powermac 6220CD

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Yep. I don't think I have a rep here for using shaded sarcasm, certainly not aimed at a comrade here in the barracks  .  .  .  maybe aimed at Cory a little bit every once in a while in the midst of one of our discussions. [;)]

 

Vitriolic sarcasm heaped upon corporate strategies (Apple, its management overall and SJ in act one) would be my MO and readily apparent.

 

I may bottom feed eBay for a 6200 board to fill out my Q630/P6290/P6360/P6400/PM6500 selections for the three cases/chassis in the hoard. Still haven't found that two SIMM slotted 68LC040 DOS Compatible board. :/

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Let's keep in mind here that Steve Jobs' plan once he returned was to... actually sell competently good computers.

 

The iMac represented a huge shift in strategy from the 6000 series because it was essentially a beige G3 but with a better firmware in a smaller case, whereas the entire 6000 series was an entire separate platform designed specifically "for consumers."

 

So, if we want to talk about bad/abusive Apple corporate strategy, their strategy for the time Jobs was gone is probably worse than their strategy for most of the time he was there.

 

At this point, Low End Mac doesn't really exist to talk about efficient use of low end Macs. It exists to complain about modern Apple and revel in the idea that coffee pots are cleanable.

 

And, of course flatting the model lineup at the time meant that the Beige G3 was more accessible as a consumer/office desktop than the 7000 series ever was. Within a year of switching to the flattened model lineup, Apple dropped prices on the entire lineup by at least $1000.

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Other than the dearth of slots finally somewhat addressed by the DA release, I don't have much complaint about SJ's second coming and murder of PEx.

 

iMac saved Apple, maybe the packaging and that awful color SJ chose helped, but the iMac project was well under way before his return, no? Really enjoyed the "official" Biography. Got recommendations for an opposing damnation/deification bio pairing?

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The G3 Motherboard was codenamed Gossamer and Apple was pissed that the G3 outperformed the 9600 because the G3 was meant to be their celeron.  I want that beige G3.  So anyways, Steve jobs killed the newton and all the clones and invented the iphone which saved apple

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The slots are an incidental. We know that you'll be angry about them until the end of time, despite the fact that, wasn't your work computer basically a Performa anyway?

 

The G3 and the unified, slimmed product line based on it, saved Apple, and the iMac was a huge part of it. I have no doubt at all that Apple would have flubbed it hard had Jobs not been there to cut all the dead weight holding them down.

 

I've heard that the iMac was started before Jobs came onboard, but I'm not 100% sure that we've seen what that would have looked like. That said, I actually haven't read any of Jobs' biographies, so it's possible that's presented in more detail there.

 

This isn't about deifying Steve Jobs, this is about the pure facts, from Apple's actual annual reports, that the company was in decline and a pretty radical change in product stack and overall direction saved it.

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4 minutes ago, Cory5412 said:

The slots are an incidental. We know that you'll be angry about them until the end of time, despite the fact that, wasn't your work computer basically a Performa anyway?

Slots are only incidental if you don't need them, which you and most average users didn't. The core users that kept Apple's cool factor going, which is about the only thing that kept Apple alive until SJ came back definitely needed them. But that wasn't me either.

 

Dunno where you got that Performa notion? Yeah, the Crescendo G3 L2 was in the board and the full length 1600x1200 Radius Graphics Card was hacked into the sheet metal of a refurb 6360, but that wasn't your run of the mill "Performa" by any stretch of the imagination. The much later iMac was no match for that whatsoever for an object oriented graphics design production machine and couldn't have supported the ADB dongle for the CAD/CAM setup either. By the time the DA shipped, I really needed a new Mac and finally bought my third brand new one. Slots were used for Ultra-SCSI, PCI VidCard for the second display and Ultra-ATA(?) not all that long thereafter.

 

The expansion slot options were more important than the processor/speedof the machine were to my workflow.

 

The favorite T-Shirt I've yet to buy reads: "I used the Mac when Apple was doomed." You're quite a bit too young to wear that one or realize its import.

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The 6360 is basically a Performa, and far from a 9600 or S900. If expansion functionality was important, the 6360 was probably not the best machine to buy, relative to a 4400, 7x00, or any of the clones based on either of those systems.

 

The iMac wasn't meant to compete with the market that would have been served by a Power Mac 7000 or 8000's expansion functionality, and it sounds like that's approximately where you were, if you needed to remove your Performa from its case to install that graphics card. The Beige G3s offered that particular level of expansion. I'm guessing (probably harmed by people buying S900s and PowerTowerPros instead of 9600s) Apple made the decision not to build a six-slot version of the Power Macintosh G3 board (would've been easy to do) based on slim sales of their own six-slot machines.

 

It helps that the sales channels for Macs were so full in the late '90s you could buy a UMAX S900 new until the Power Macintosh G4 launched, so people who needed the slots above all else were served by a system that was possible to buy, despite not being new, or by Apple.

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How is the iMac any different than a G3 All in one without the floppy and zip drives?  Are you telling me that Putting the same computer more or less, in a colorful plastic case instead of white, and REMOVING floppy and zip (which in my opinion was a bad move) SAVED an entire company?  Since when does making a product WORSE save a company?  Is the computer buying mass of America THAT turned on by flashy colors that they fail to look at the underlying specs?

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iMac's unbox/plug in/go online experience went 20th Century viral if you will. It didn't take the entire world by storm, but that hit in the consumer market saved Apple's bacon and paved the way for the iPod which launched the juggernaut of Apple as media distribution oriented company which then paved the way to the iPhone. "Computers" as such were secondary or maybe tertiary contributions in Apple's multiple front assault on the stock market summit.

 

@Cory: didn't need to remove the sheet metal, just bent up the support for the CD I never bothered to re-install. The plastics I left off for the dust traps they were. Midrange Macs weren't in the budget through the G3 era and I really only needed a fairly high end VidCard at that point, so the P6360 refurb fit the bill. I put so many, many hours on Radius and Sonnet CPU cards you could say my use of Mac CPUs was almost negligible until the G4 era.

 

That the Clone Makers trumped Apples offerings and then the three slot wonders says much about their dominance of the high end and why SJ put an end to it. Hadn't realized there was a ready backlog of capable clones lasting that long. I'm sure that Accelerators were in play there as well. Thanks for that tidbit.

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2 hours ago, boitoy1996 said:

How is the iMac any different than a G3 All in one without the floppy and zip drives?

Technically, the main differences are that it's got a new firmware that allows network booting and also the USB connections.

 

In stock configuration, the G3 All-In-One, which was only offered into education markets, not to consumers/professionals, did not have a modem, although it was possible to add one, I don't know if Apple bothered letting schools buy them that way.

 

The idea really was that the G3 AIO was going to go into environments that had a lot more legacy equipment that would need to be used, thus an AIO with Zip and Floppy. The fact that it shared PCI expansion and the ability to add the Wings a/v card was a bonus, and by the time it was available, I don't know how many schools used it.

 

It's also worth noting that the G3 AIO predates the iMac by up to a year. the Beige G3 family was introduced in around August 1997, whereas the iMac G3 was introduced in August 1998.

 

2 hours ago, boitoy1996 said:

Are you telling me that Putting the same computer more or less, in a colorful plastic case instead of white, and REMOVING floppy and zip (which in my opinion was a bad move) SAVED an entire company?

 

What I'm actually telling you is that flattening the product line from around 25 unique models in early 1997, to five in late 1997, while at the same time lowering the price on almost every single shipping Mac by a thousand dollars, created enough movement to save Apple.

 

The piece the iMac did was create an experience consumers were interested. Buying a Mac for your home before 1998 was a painful and tiresome process, and regularly huge comparison lists were published to save people at home the trouble of having to build their own.

 

Have you ever looked at what Apple was selling in 1996? There were 21 different Mac models, not counting sub-types and clones available during 1996. Plus, the issue with product stuck in the channel meant a fair number of models introduced or discontinued in 1994 and 1995 were still available.

 

Consumers didn't want another 4000/5000/6000 or have to deal with thinking about whether the 7000 series is worth it, or a clone and build your own bundle. They wanted to buy something from a short menu of choices, take it home, and send an email.

 

The iMac enabled that.

 

The iMac also isn't a bad office computer, and I know lots of schools purchased them in spades. In a lot of ways, the iMac was actually a much better machine for the education environment. Sometimes, it doesn't come down to specs, but even if it did: the iMac G3@233 had identical performance in nearly all tests to the Power Macintosh G3@233. It came with faster networking, it was small and stylish but generally didn't skimp on function, and within a few months of launch there was an extremely healthy ecosystem of peripherals.

 

The other thing that helped save Apple was cutting unnecessary expenditures. Things like QuickTakes, LaserWriters, StyleWryters, OneScanners, and the Newton never really made money for Apple. They did all that because they had pretty extreme Not Invented Here syndrome. Hilariously, most of those products (save the Newton specifically) were OEMed versions of products other companies made. Canon and HP were the true builders of most LaserWriter and StyleWriter printers, for example. QuickTake circuitry was shared with at least Kodak, and I don't know who built the hardware in the OneScanner, but my first guess is either HP or Epson. By 1997, the point had come to either accept that the Mac was going to survive and peripheral makers were going to support it (or the Mac had to adapt to support peripherals on its own) or it wasn't and it wasn't worth keeping that stuff on the books.

 

But, I guess it often gets simplified into a story of Jobs dreaming and building the iMac and the iMac on its own saving the company. That version ignores a lot of real troubles Apple had up through 1997, some of which persisted through early 1998.

 

1 hour ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

a fairly high end VidCard at that point

I haven't had an opportunity to test it to 1600x1200, I should bring it into my office and do so, but with the 6-meg option, the GPU in the Beige G3 can do 1280x1024@24bit. I bet it could also do 1600x1200@24. The iMac has a very close chip and can also take the upgrade to 6MB.

 

Of course, an iMac's internal display can't operate at 1600x1200, but it's of note that the iMac's GPU could do it.

 

Idly, I hadn't been aware Radius also made PCI video cards. It would be neat to see someone stuff one into a 7000/8000/9000 and use it instead of a Rage128 or Radeon.

2 hours ago, Trash80toHP_Mini said:

trumped Apples offerings

That is very in the eye of the beholder, but sort of true. Two things happened:

 

Clones based on the pro Mac architectures were cheaper. Even systems that were literally a Power Macintosh 9500 board but in another vendor's case (PowerTower Pro is pretty close to this description - they dressed it up in an EATX format, but it was a near entirely unmodified 9500 architecture) cost a little less than what Apple was charging.

 

The UMAX S900 in particular offered some neat features above what Apple was doing, such as UltraSCSI and 10/100 Ethernet on the "E100" card, along with a 50MHz bus, up from 40MHz on every other 7500-9600 derived platform and on most of the other clones.

 

The entire clone program was basically intended for cloners to build something like the UMAX C-series, which Apple thought was needed for the platform, but didn't really want to build themselves. The idea was that they'd design the 4400, and then the cloners would copy it and sell it inexpensively in bulk to people who would grow the overall Mac market, without touching Apple's part of it. Instead, Apple opened all of their platforms up for cloning and the clone makers ate Apple's lunch at the high end -- the systems Apple probably most needed to move to make anything they were doing at the time make sense.

 

Thinking about it, a 4400 or C500 might have been a pretty ideal system for you, both had two PCI slots and at least one on the C500 could hold long cards. I believe all three cards in the C600 could be long. There was even a C600 configuration that came with a 2M accelerator, although I'm not sure if that card could have done 1600x1200@24, however you could add your own still.

 

I don't know if there's a lot of proof that low end of midrange clones ever did what Apple wanted in terms of growing the Mac market below what a retail Performa would have cost at the time, making the whole thing that much more of a failure.

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Radius' PCI offerings never went very far. By "fairly high end" I meant it matched the Thunder IV GX 1600 spec on the faster PCI bus without costing a fortune when I picked it up used. That was a major criticism of Radius' PCI offerings, they were a rehash of what they'd already done on NuBus. I've got a few in the collection, but haven't really played with them. I fairly recently snagged a short card from Radius with S3 ChipSet that I'm looking forward to testing. I think that was about as far as they made it into PCI before the wielders of economies of scale in the PC graphic card world nailed the custom Mac Video Card Market's coffin shut.

 

Always wanted to see a Radius Clone with a PCI bus  .  .  .  sigh!

 

For the work I was doing, the higher clock rate and cache of the Sonnet L2 card trumped just about anything I could have possibly afforded along the lines of what you mentioned. Great performance in Illustrator (usually on the older rev while I played with the current upgrade) at full screen on a desktop with an assload of pixels worked wonders. That hopped up Performa really performed! Just the 6360 and VidCard were head and shoulders above the Docked 2300c I'd had to make do with for a while after being forced to make the move to running PPC code.

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1 hour ago, Cory5412 said:

Idly, I hadn't been aware Radius also made PCI video cards. It would be neat to see someone stuff one into a 7000/8000/9000 and use it instead of a Rage128 or Radeon.

Interestingly enough, I'd been interested in them forever floating around on ebay.  I bought one some time back and actuallly used it in my G3-upgraded PCC Powerbase.

 

It was... interesting.  This was the "faster" ThunderPower one meant for higher end 604s (no DSP board connections; still there but the pins aren't).  It had some interesting (standard on 2D cards at the time) features: pan-n-zoom and setting a virtual resolution higher than the resolution on the display.  Performance against my Radeon wasn't impressive for a multi-grand card (I thought it would compete 2D-wise).  I honestly think they just plunked their nubus architecture on a pci card.  It did have 30-bit DACs, for what's it worth.

 

Being as Radius always gave the card a name (1600 etc) based on the highest resolution offered in 24-bit, I don't know why they called it the Thunderpower 30/1920 since it only had 6MB VRAM and simply couldn't pull it off.

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