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Alex

Macintosh SE/30 Schematics (modernization effort)

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To all interested parties.

 

I have downloaded the SE/30 schematics and they appear to be a bitmap (black and white only) scan of what I gather are the original documents.

 

I am more than willing to recreate the documents in Adobe Illustrator and upload them to the WIKI but before I take on the task. Are there already vector versions of the schematics floating around somewhere, in which case my effort would not be worthwhile.

 

Could someone be so kind to fill in this gap of knowledge so that I can take on the task or abandon it for obvious reasons.

 

Also, if schematic modernization is indeed worth pursuing please point me to all the versions of the document(s) that I should use as templates.

 

This is what I did find, https://museo.freaknet.org/gallery/apple/stuff/mac/andreas.kann/SE30_P3.GIF, there are a total of 9 GIF documents at that URL.

 

Any further info would be greatly appreciated.

 

Kind regards

—Alex Santos

Edited by Alex

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BOMARC has SE/30 schematics, that I find a little bit easier to read than Apple's ENGINEERING RELEASE schematics.

 

Bear in mind, that this is a LOT of work.

Edited by Themk

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Actually, the most laborious part or time consuming part is typing in all the text, the rest is rather simple.

 

Can you provide me links to the two sources?

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I dunno, I've drawn enough schematics, and the thought of cloning Apple or BOMARC's schematics, without making any errors is pretty daunting to me. That's a lot of pages, and a lot of connections.

 

You might consider drawing your new schematics in KiCad. They have an export to SVG/PDF/EPS/PS function, but you get the advantages of working with an editor that's designed specifically around drawing schematics.

 

Oh, and in case you are wondering, KiCad is Free and open source.

Edited by Themk

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Great link. Downloading now.

 

Well, let me explain why I think the endeavor doesn't appear to be so complex but please excuse my ignorance as I come from a design background and have used Illustrator for years. The schematics I referred to in the link look like a bunch of lines to me (excuse my naiveness ) that fall inside a grid of sorts. From that perspective it does look easy to me. Of course I am going to check out KiCAD, which looks very cool but I am not trying to build a working circuit just to clean up the existing schematics for the sake of legibility, some of it is rather course looking.

 

What did you have in mind? I would really appreciate your perspective, especially because you have drawn schematics and that is certainly an advantage that could make more sense.

 

Also, as I thought about this, are the individual files (pages) actually supposed to be layered one over the other? It dawned on me that they might. I admit to not quite understanding schematics, my ignorance on the matter is rather profound so I could learn a few things before I dive into what I currently see as simply using the pages as templates to enhance legibility by creating new files.

 

I look forward to your reply.

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I think I see the light, yeah it does look like a lot of work. KiCad would essentially create a file that I guess could even be used to manufacture a whole new board. Incredible.

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you know, if you cloned the schematics into a PCB CAD package like Altium or even KiCad, then "technically" a new PCB could be routed and produced. 

 

Fix all those battery damaged units, Heatgun off all the proprietary chips from your old junk board, and solder them onto the new one. 

 

I can dream, but ya know.. 

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It would be amazing! But there's schematics, and then there's layout and routing. Even if we had a known-good SE/30 netlist in a package like KiCad, auto-created from BOMARC or Apple's schematics, it would still be quite a lot of effort to produce a working PCB. But I'd be the first to congratulate anyone who pulls it off!

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I guess we can dream …

 

I checked out a youtube video last night, for only a few minutes though, it was late but KiCad looks really cool. I would love to replicate the schematics that are out there in KiCad, it could be a fun project and it looks like it's really made for this kind of work. From what I can tell it's not typically used for recreating existing boards but it does support opening an existing PNG file as a layer on which to 'paint' parts on to.

 

Illustrator is my comfort zone for sure. The problem with the existing Apple Engineering schematics is that text is barely legible.

 

I will recreate one of the pages in Illustrator and then come back here to this post to get all your reactions with an uploaded PDF. Let's try, KiCad is totally new to me, only heard of it and it has a lot of knobs so… I will chime back.

Edited by Alex

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BOMARC is out of business and will no longer sell you schematics. Charles Phillips (Uniserver) is selling BOMARC schematics, and it is unclear if he has permission to do so. I keep thinking I should buy them anyway before they disappear completely. But the total cost for all the ones he has is nearly $300.

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BOMARC is out of business and will no longer sell you schematics. Charles Phillips (Uniserver) is selling BOMARC schematics, and it is unclear if he has permission to do so. I keep thinking I should buy them anyway before they disappear completely. But the total cost for all the ones he has is nearly $300.

 

Hmm, that's not nice, selling something you didn't make? Naughty if you ask me. I have BOMARC Schematics, it is easily found on the internet for download so …

 

As an FYI I am working on the schematics in Illustrator. It does take some time as I want it to be accurate and look good even when zoomed in. I have a few other things going but I will be posting them somewhere on the 68K Liberation Army, for free. I am recreating someone else's work, I couldn't think of charging for it and it was never a goal of mine. My goal is to present something the community can use that looks decent.

 

Actually I might need help as some of the text is very illegible and not being an engineer or familiar enough with these topics I will have to come back for assistance.

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BOMARC's are much easier to read than Apple's engineering release.

Indeed, I may need some help from you all with figuring out what is written, it's a blob in some cases.

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I have only found the SE/30 schematics. Are you saying you have the other 12 schematics that are for sale on his site?

Well, I have a few files that have a Bomarc seal on them and they look hand drawn. I am not intimately familiar with those documents that he has so I cannot answer your question in all honesty. 

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If indeed uniserver is selling BOMARC's schematics without permission, and BOMARC is out of business, then we should put together an archive of BOMARC's schematics. This would at least prevent uniserver from making money on things he does not own.

 

I have the Classic II schematics from BOMARC to contribute, if so.

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I thought uniserver paid BOMARC to create some of those schematics in the first place and that's why he has the rights to sell them. Could probably get the actual scoop if you went over to thinkclassic website and asked.

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He hired BOMARC for the Color Classic schematic, that is true. All of the other schematics were in the BOMARC catalog since it first appeared online in the early 2000s, and were likely created long before then.

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If indeed uniserver is selling BOMARC's schematics without permission, and BOMARC is out of business, then we should put together an archive of BOMARC's schematics. This would at least prevent uniserver from making money on things he does not own.

 

I have the Classic II schematics from BOMARC to contribute, if so.

It would be prudent to verify whether he has the rights to sell the schematics before advocating that they be taken and posted for free. We do know that he worked with them to have the CC and Classic II schematics made.

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We absolutely must verify that uniserver's no longer paying royalties under agreement with the document's creators before proceeding with such an effort.

 

I've bought the paper versions from Bomarc in the past in order to "legitimize" illegal electronic copies I've harvested from the web. Intellectual property rights are a serious issue and rights to it belong to the company's ownership even after the doors of a business have closed.

 

If anyone learns of a process to reimburse the creators for the illegal copies floating around, I'd appreciate the opportunity to divest myself of a bit more of teh filthy lucre.

 

Be that as it may: "fair use" of intellectual property includes artistic and educational purposes. Such is a sticky wicket legally. Consolidation of information from multiple sources even more so, but that's a time honored and legitimate tradition known as primary source research.

 

There are definitely gaps in Apple's "in-process" engineering schematic for the SE/30 and in its official documentation publications, specifically in the IIsi information in DCaDftMF. Error corrections and additional information almost certainly exist in later "unreleased" iterations of Apple's SE/30 schematic and errors in Bomarc's schematics should be expected.

 

For this particular project I'd say have at it, needs to be done and is arguably legitimate use.

 

 

All IMO, of course.

 

edit: note that my opinion here is based information garnered by personal experiences in the process of spending several thousand dollars on legal advice for very similar and in cases identical issues. 

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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I don't condone it or condemn it, but I don't really see how this is different from what Macintosh Garden is doing. It's redistributing digital content from original authors who no longer exist, or are no longer selling the content. Although not everyone agrees, most Mac collectors seem fine with what the Garden is doing.

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I don't really see how this is different from what Macintosh Garden is doing. It's redistributing digital content from original authors who no longer exist, or are no longer selling the content. Although not everyone agrees, most Mac collectors seem fine with what the Garden is doing.

 

The part that rubs people wrong is charging money for them. Macintosh Garden doesn't sell other people's intellectual property for profit.

 

It would be prudent to verify whether he has the rights to sell the schematics before advocating that they be taken and posted for free. We do know that he worked with them to have the CC and Classic II schematics made.

 

I agree that before anyone crucifies the guy over this, that it has to be determined whether he has rights to sell them. From this post it seems pretty clear that the only schematics he commissioned were the Classic II and Color Classic. However, he may have made an arrangement with Blob for rights to sell the others.

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Out of curiosity, what rights to a commissioned schematic confer upon the purchaser and are retained by Blob for further distribution under the purchase agreement? He probably did contract work for DayStar and the like back when and purchase agreements are subject to all different kinds of limitations. But if he free lanced the efforts for general sales who the heck knows what applies at this point?

 

 

edit: general rule of thumb: the biggest PITA is probably the most ethical approach. :-/

Edited by Trash80toHP_Mini

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