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Wierd Issue: Hard drive spinning down on LC II


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#1 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:18 AM

So I waited too long to recap (one of) my LC II's. I was using it the other day when the speaker started crackling as I was using it... uh oh.

 

Pulled it off the stack and pulled out the caps. Ordered new ones, they came today and I recapped it.

 

After recapping, the sound is nice and crisp again, but the hard drive now spins down a few seconds after spinning up during booting. It repeats this, then tries to boot off the floppy. Seems really odd, the recap was very smooth (no lifted pads etc.) and I cleaned it pretty darned thoroughly. Any ideas?

 

I've tried multiple known working SCSI drives, and it worked before recapping.


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#2 BadGoldEagle

BadGoldEagle
  • 68000

Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:35 AM

First of all, are you 100% sure you got the polarity right when soldering in the new caps? It happened to me once, one cap was mounted backwards...

 

Then, if the logic board seems fine, the PSU might be weak. Check the PSU voltage with a MMU. Mine's currently outputting +0.6V on the +12V rail...

I need to recap it too!

 

 

Mac LC PSU pinout
1 Ground  Black
2 Ground  Black
3      Not Used 
4   5+ V     Orange
5  12+ V    Yellow
6      Not used 
7   5- V     Blue


COOL STUFF: Working original & nearly complete 1984 Macintosh w/ Picasso kit, still looking for a G440 mouse :p, NIB Newton MessagePad from 1993, iMac G3 400MHz DV Graphite

IN THE WORKS: The outstanding SE/30 (50MHz Powercache, Pivot Display Color Graphics) but also non-working 512K Hyperdrive w/ Manuals & Disks, Mac Portable M5126, SE Dual 800k, Classic II, HD40SC, Apple Djinn... I have a lot of restorations going on!


#3 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:52 AM

Yep, quadruple checked polarity. They're tantalum capacitors, so I think they would pop if I got this wrong as well.

 

PSU is OK, 5 V measures 5.04 and 12 V measures 11.78. I can also use it to boot my other LC II successfully.


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#4 bibilit

bibilit
  • 68000
  • LocationParis area -FRANCE-

Posted 29 June 2017 - 12:41 PM

Hi,

 

Can you check outputs at the HD molex connector ? pretty easy in the LC as the molex is pretty easy to check in the Logic Board side.

 

Also, any shorted capacitor ? happened to me a couple of times.


Macintosh Classic and II ,CC, SE, SE/30,IIsi 25mhz(RasterOps video),Q 700,LC, LC III,LC475, PBook Wallstreet/Bronze/5300cs/1400c/100/Tibook Imac G3 slot-in, Bondi and G4 / PMac G4 sawtooth, QS, MDD, Yikes!, Cube, Imac Core 2 Duo, Ibook G3 (white/clam) G4 + Newton 120, eMate 300,Quicktake 150,  PowerCD


#5 EvilCapitalist

EvilCapitalist
  • 6502
  • LocationNorthern Virginia

Posted 29 June 2017 - 12:45 PM

If your drive is a Quantum it's likely just stiction and it's a pretty common issue with the older drives out there.  There are a whole bunch of threads that mention it (just search "stiction") but this thread is one of the more detailed ones.


Own | SE Superdrive with AE TransWarp accelerator | Color Classic with Presto Plus accelerator | Color Classic II with Presto Plus accelerator | SE/30 | Classic with MicroMac Performer accelerator | LC | PM5200/75 | Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh with Crescendo G3/500MHz accelerator | G3 All-in-one with Encore G4/1GHz accelerator | iBook G3 | iBook G4 | iMac G3 | iMac G4 | G4 Cube 

Have owned | 512K | Plus | Classic II | Performa 575 | PM5260/100 | iMac G3 | iMac C2D | IIcx | LC | Quadra 700 | II | IIsi w/Portrait Display | Performa 400 | IIvx | Quadra 650 | PM6100/60 | PM7200/120 | PM7200/120 PC Compatible | PM7600/132 | Performa 6360 | Beige G3 | Quadra 840AV | PM8100/110 | PM8500/150 | PM8500/180 | PM6400 | PM6500 | PM9600/300 | PC PTP225 | B&W G3 | Graphite G4 | PB140 | PB165c | PB520c | PB540c | PB5300cs | PB190cs | PB1400cs/117 | Graphite iBook | Graphite iBook SE | MacBook C2D White | MacBook C2D Black Late 2013 MacBook Pro Retina 


#6 bibilit

bibilit
  • 68000
  • LocationParis area -FRANCE-

Posted 29 June 2017 - 03:36 PM

Yes, but he has been trying other good drives as well.

 

 

 

I've tried multiple known working SCSI drives, and it worked before recapping.

Macintosh Classic and II ,CC, SE, SE/30,IIsi 25mhz(RasterOps video),Q 700,LC, LC III,LC475, PBook Wallstreet/Bronze/5300cs/1400c/100/Tibook Imac G3 slot-in, Bondi and G4 / PMac G4 sawtooth, QS, MDD, Yikes!, Cube, Imac Core 2 Duo, Ibook G3 (white/clam) G4 + Newton 120, eMate 300,Quicktake 150,  PowerCD


#7 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 29 June 2017 - 04:28 PM

Yep, and both the drives I tried boot just fine in my other LC II.

 

bibilit: I checked the power at the HD molex connector last night, and while I don't remember the exact values, they were pretty close to 12 V and 5 V. I also poked around the board checking for connectivity on the capacitors and found in the process that C10 was shorted. I got all excited for a second thinking I solved the problem, but alas, it behaved exactly the same once I fixed that. :sad:


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#8 bibilit

bibilit
  • 68000
  • LocationParis area -FRANCE-

Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:36 PM

I will wash the board to get rid of any residue from the recap process, happened to me once also.


Macintosh Classic and II ,CC, SE, SE/30,IIsi 25mhz(RasterOps video),Q 700,LC, LC III,LC475, PBook Wallstreet/Bronze/5300cs/1400c/100/Tibook Imac G3 slot-in, Bondi and G4 / PMac G4 sawtooth, QS, MDD, Yikes!, Cube, Imac Core 2 Duo, Ibook G3 (white/clam) G4 + Newton 120, eMate 300,Quicktake 150,  PowerCD


#9 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 01 July 2017 - 06:28 PM

Good idea, I will have to try that when I get back home to it (I'm visiting family for the weekend).

 

Do you have any advice for washing these guys? I've read elsewhere that its safe to just toss in dishwasher, but I would be scared to do that.


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#10 Macdrone

Macdrone
  • 68020
  • LocationKelso, Wa

Posted 01 July 2017 - 10:50 PM

I use the dishwasher.  I will say LC's have one silkscreen that was found to be incorrect on th ecapacitor for one capacitor.  You may want to compare the caps, no matter what the replacements are.  Uniserver listed it a few years ago.  I am not sure which one it was.


Lots O' Macs, but now thinning the lots.


#11 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 12 July 2017 - 01:48 AM

Well, I just finished dishwashing the board. I'm letting it dry for 24+ hours, then I'll give it a shot.

 

Fingers crossed.


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#12 bigmessowires

bigmessowires
  • 68000
  • LocationSan Francisco Bay Area, CA

Posted 12 July 2017 - 02:49 AM

What method do you use to remove the old caps? The one and only time I did it, I used a hot air gun. It worked OK, but I accidentally unsoldered some unrelated nearby components and knocked them off the board. Fortunately I was able to solder them back in. I know you can buy double-ended soldering irons, so maybe that's a better option.



#13 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:04 AM

I experimented a few methods with this one. On my last recap job I slowly lifted and twisted on the caps with tweezers until the legs broke; I lifted one solder pad this way :sad:.

 

This time, I repeated that method for the first few caps, thought it was too sketchy, then tried a few using two soldering pencils. Eventually, I tried a few where I broke the plastic under the pad, removed the plastic, and clipped & de-soldered the legs.

 

I don't have a hot air gun. What you were thinking of is hot tweezers; I definitely want to invest in them soon!


Edited by jack, 12 July 2017 - 03:05 AM.

Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#14 bigmessowires

bigmessowires
  • 68000
  • LocationSan Francisco Bay Area, CA

Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:34 AM

Maybe hot air gun + kapton tape is a good enough solution, and you'd probably use it a lot more than soldering tweezers. I use my hot air gun fairly often. For desoldering surface mount chips, it's the only realistic solution. The drawback is that applying the heat isn't super precise, and other small nearby components may also get hot enough to melt their solder. Kapton tape should help.

 

I just did a brief search of soldering tweezers, and all the inexpensive ones seem to have poor reviews. I'm not sure a more expensive one would get used often enough to be worth it.

 

The hot air rework station that I have looks like this one: https://www.amazon.c...s/dp/B01M4PWU0C



#15 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 12 July 2017 - 04:43 AM

Thanks for the tip! I just ordered a hot air rework station... I've got three more Macs awaiting recapping right now, so I'll hold off on doing them until it comes :)


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#16 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 15 July 2017 - 03:50 PM

So, I didn't break it with the dishwasher. I also didn't fix it.

 

Any other suggestions? I'll also poke around with a multimeter and see what I can diagnose.


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#17 bigmessowires

bigmessowires
  • 68000
  • LocationSan Francisco Bay Area, CA

Posted 15 July 2017 - 04:46 PM

I would try a different PSU. I know you already measured the voltages, but maybe it has an intermittent problem, or can't deliver the fully rated amperage.



#18 jack

jack
  • 6502

Posted 15 July 2017 - 11:50 PM

No different results with the PSU from the working LC II.

 

Still haven't gotten around to poking around with a multimeter yet (connectivity tests, etc.). Maybe I will uncover something...


Macs: Plus, SE (x2), IIci, LC II (x2), Classic, Classic II (x2), PB 520, PM 6100, iMac G3 (x2), iLamp G4, iBook G3 Clamshell (x3), iBook G3 Snow, and a big stack of iBook G4's.

Other stuff: Apple IIgs, Sun Ultra 10, ImageBanger II (too many), and plenty of old DOS/Windows machines.


#19 Nathan

Nathan
  • 6502
  • LocationUpstate NY, USA

Posted 19 July 2017 - 10:49 PM

Did you test the -5 V line? You don't mention it as far as I can tell. Maybe do a PSU recap? I would think if the drive spins up then things were okay initially. Can you boot from floppy and if so does the drive mount and is it readable?

PPC: iBook G4 14"/1.42Ghz [1.5 GB], PowerMac G4 800 DP QS [1.5 GB], Bondi iMac G3 333MHz (Upgraded Proc) [512 MB], Performa 6100/66 [136 MB]
68k: Macintosh LC II [12 MB], Macintosh LC III [36 MB] | Older: Apple IIe Enhanced [128 KB], Newton eMate 300 w/memory enh. [4 MB]


#20 Nathan

Nathan
  • 6502
  • LocationUpstate NY, USA

Posted 19 July 2017 - 10:51 PM

I assume you tried the non-working drive in the working LC II?

PPC: iBook G4 14"/1.42Ghz [1.5 GB], PowerMac G4 800 DP QS [1.5 GB], Bondi iMac G3 333MHz (Upgraded Proc) [512 MB], Performa 6100/66 [136 MB]
68k: Macintosh LC II [12 MB], Macintosh LC III [36 MB] | Older: Apple IIe Enhanced [128 KB], Newton eMate 300 w/memory enh. [4 MB]





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