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retrobecanes

Capacitor list for SE/30 analog board

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Those are for the power supplies.  For the analog board, I just finished a recap.  Here's the parts I used from digikey.

Please note, C15 (3.9uF 35V bipolar) is no longer available.  There are some on eBay, but I don't really trust capacitors from eBay.  So, I used a high frequency switching film capacitor, which should work well other than the different shape.

 

I've been happy with the results.  I'm not sure if all SE and SE/30 analog boards are the same, so please check the list against your board before ordering.  I also completed a recap of a Sony power supply.  I can include that list as well if you want it.

 

EDIT:  I also wanted to add, you can slide the corner of a piece of paper under the existing capacitors to see if they are leaking.  If the paper comes out discolored, you'd best get to recapping ASAP.    If not, then maybe not as important, although they can fail with no external cues.

Edited by joethezombie

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Those are for the power supplies.  For the analog board, I just finished a recap.  Here's the parts I used from digikey.

Please note, C15 (3.9uF 35V bipolar) is no longer available.  There are some on eBay, but I don't really trust capacitors from eBay.  So, I used a high frequency switching film capacitor, which should work well other than the different shape.

 

This is super useful, thanks! I'm sure I'll be having to do this myself soon...

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Quick update: I did the analog board recap this weekend based on JoeTheZombie cap list and it worked out great.  The analog board now works like a new one.  The wiggly screen and intermittent passing band have vanished.  Thanks again!

Edited by retrobecanes

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On 1/23/2017 at 6:19 AM, joethezombie said:

For the analog board, I just finished a recap.  Here's the parts I used from digikey.

Looks good, except perhaps for the 2 axial caps.  Those are the only 2 in your list of replacement Nichicons that have a 2000h@85°C rating.  All the radial caps have a 105°C rating, and rated at many more hours too.  Vishay is more expensive but is perhaps a better alternative for the axials.  Compare specs:

 

Nichicon 22uF 50V +/-20% axial, 2000h@85°C:

https://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=262440786&uq=636633304796196373

 

Vishay 22uF 50V +/-20% axial, 2000h@105°C

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/vishay-bc-components/MAL213831229E3/4237PHCT-ND/263350

 

and

 

Nichicon 33uF 25V +/-20% axial, 2000h@85°C:

https://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=262446953&uq=636633364314617855

 

Vishay 50V +/-20% axial, 2000h@105°C (sadly Digikey doesn't have this p/n, but Mouser does):

https://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/Vishay-Sprague/30D336M050CB2A?qs=%2fha2pyFadui9Y6APtT5pVVUD0UrcKfUoYxrZNQfMzjq%2fWw0d7nWWm6O0oSh4AGdP

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Yes, the axials, DigiKey did not have exact replacements.  I chose the best they had at the time.  Interesting to see they’ve added the Vishay you found.  But regardless, if your analog board is reaching 85C where the axials are located, you’ve got bigger problems than capacitors. 

 

I’m unfamiliar with Mouser’s product catalog.  I wonder if they have a better C15 replacement.  The film capacitor I used has the wrong lead spacing, so the legs need creative bending.

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11 hours ago, joethezombie said:

...if your analog board is reaching 85C where the axials are located, you’ve got bigger problems than capacitors. 

When choosing fluid-filled electrolytic capacitors, it's not a matter of our vintage Macs running constantly at a toasty 85°C.  It's all about how to chose a replacement cap so it will have a long life.  

 

Most likely our compact Macs will run at 40°C or so inside, even with the fan, and especially so on hot days.  Depending on the ambient temperature of your room and whether there's a spinning platter HDD inside, the inside might even reach 50°C and even hotter if outside sunlight hits the housing for a long time.  Of course, the inside won't hit 85°C unless something is seriously wrong; but again, we are not picking replacement electrolytic caps based on our "expected operating temperature."  

 

The temp spec of these caps combined with the hour spec tells us something about how long that cap will last (in terms of years) when used at significantly lower temperatures.  For example, a cap spec'd at "2000h@85°C" will have a shorter life when used at 40°C than a cap spec'd at "2000h@105°C" when also used at 40°C.  Indeed, the cap longevity difference in terms of "hours" can and often is on order of 10x different.  Not all manufactures make this clear though.  Some will say, "multiple the specified Hours by 10 for every 20°C drop in operating temperature, with the total capacitor life not to exceed 20 years."  I can't find that info for these Nichicons and Vishays we're talking about, but if that holds true for them, we would have 2000h x 10 = 20,000h@"spec-temp minus 20°C" and 20,000h x 10 = 200,000h@"spec-temp minus 40°C" and so on.  Divide the hours by 24 to get days, then divide that result by 365 to get years, and remember that these caps won't function properly beyond 20 years.

 

I’m unfamiliar with Mouser’s product catalog.  I wonder if they have a better C15 replacement.  The film capacitor I used has the wrong lead spacing, so the legs need creative bending.

Below is a list of film caps at Mouser, which include the Panasonic cap you selected, all PP and rated at the same 3.9uF capacitance, 5% tolerance, and 105°C rating.  Lead spacing varies by part and I haven't opened my SE/30 to see what the lead spacing should be, but perhaps you would know?

 

https://www.mouser.jp/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/_/N-9x371?P=1z0wpzmZ1z0z7l5Z1z0x6frZ1yzs9nvZ1z0vhz5Z1yznbzs

Edited by JDW

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Thanks for your detailed explanation.  When researching this, I read that these ratings are not lifespans, rather abuse tests.  The manufacturer runs the part (for example) at 85C for 2000h continuous hours, then allows a cool down, and a final test on the capacitor to see if it still performs to the specifications.  I'm also curious if the computed longevity compares continuous use vs. idle time.   But it is good to know there is a source (Mouser) for 105C parts.

 

Lead spacing for C15 is 8mm.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, joethezombie said:

When researching this, I read that these ratings are not lifespans, rather abuse tests...  I'm also curious if the computed longevity compares continuous use vs. idle time...

 

Lead spacing for C15 is 8mm.

Even though that data is taken from manufacturer testing, the manufacturer has a way to compute longevity from that data, as I described in my previous post.  It's just that I cannot find anything online that tells us precisely how Nichicon and Vishay compute longevity for the caps we are talking about.  But manufacturers of other electrolytic capacitors do post such information in datasheets, and in many cases it is a "10x multiplier of hours" for every 20°C drop in operating temperature, which is why I use that as a good rule of thumb.

 

The film caps in my Mouser list with the narrowest Lead Spacing is the film cap you choose, which is 12.5mm instead of the needed 8mm.  But as you said, if you bend the leads they will reach to fit the narrower spacing.

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1 hour ago, JDW said:

 

 

Below is a list of film caps at Mouser, which include the Panasonic cap you selected, all PP and rated at the same 3.9uF capacitance, 5% tolerance, and 105°C rating.  Lead spacing varies by part and I haven't opened my SE/30 to see what the lead spacing should be, but perhaps you would know?

 

I was replying to the lead spacing for C15 and just noticed Joe already replied.  Pretend this message doesn't exist.

 

Edited by superjer2000

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joethezombie put together a very nice list of caps for us (thank you, Joe!), but there are some problems that need to be considered for those who want to order all the caps today.  I assembled the following information, which is valid as of today, October 3, 2018.

 

SE/30 Analog Board Capacitor DigiKey List from joethezombie (see notes in bold in parenthesis):

  • C18: 22uF 20% 50V AXIAL, 6.3x12mm (85°C max!)
  • C11: 33uF 20% 25V AXIAL, 5x12mm (85°C max! Currently backordered. See replacement in Mouser list below.)
  • C19: 10uF 20% 160V RADIAL, 10x16.5mm  (backordered at Mouser!)
  • C14: 4700uF 20% 25V RADIAL, 18x27mm
  • C13,C24: 220uF 20% 16V RADIAL, 10x17.5mm (EOL & not stocked on Mouser!)
  • C9: 1000uF 20% 16V RADIAL, 16x26.5mm (EOL & not stocked on Mouser!)
  • C2,C7,C22,C25: 100UF 20% 25V RADIAL, 6.3x11mm
  • C15: 3.9uF 5% 250VDC RADIAL, 23.8x13.5x20.8 (LxDxH)  (Not stocked on Mouser!)

EOL = End of Life, not recommended by manufacturer for new designs (obviously best to pick a different part)

 

I wanted to see if pricing would be different on Mouser, since I've ordered with them before, and the good news is it's roughly the same, including shipping (shipping to Japan anyway).  But when ordering from Mouser, some of the above capacitors are either not stocked or backordered. A similar set of caps that can be ordered from Mouser are these (note differences in bold):

  • C18: 22uF 20% 50V AXIAL, 7.87x12.7mm (p/n: MAL213821229E3, DigiKey has no stock)
  • C11: 33uF 20% 40V AXIAL, 7.87x12.7mm (p/n: MAL213827339E3, DigiKey has no stock)
  • C19: 10uF 20% 160V RADIAL, 10x16mm (p/n: UCS2C100MPD) 8000hr
  • C14: same p/n as in DigiKey list above
  • C13,C24: 220uF 20% 16V RADIAL, 8x11.5mm (p/n: 860160374017) Wurth7000hr
  • C9: 1000uF 20% 16V RADIAL, 10x20mm (p/n: 860080375019) Wurth5000hr
  • C2,C7,C22,C25: same p/n as in DigiKey list above
  • C15: 3.9uF 5% 450VDC RADIAL, 25.3x10.7x15.4 (LxDxH) (p/n: ECW-FD2W395J)

 

NOTE1: "Wurth" is a German electronics manufacturer and a respected name in power supply components, especially for their coils.

NOTE2: Organic polymer aluminum electrolytic capacitors are available but I avoided listing them as alternatives since their ESR is so low it could actually cause problems.  I've not done circuit analysis to say that definitively for all the caps, but you're safe using regular caps that have normal ESR, which is what I listed above and is what Joe listed in his original list.

 

When I have time, I need to see what will fit using the physical dimension data above.  Physical size of the caps shouldn't be an issue, but LEAD SPACING and LEAD THICKNESS need to be considered.

 

Feel free to share your thoughts on the lists above.

Edited by JDW

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Hi, does the SE/30 has the exact same analog board as de original SE?  if not, is there a complete list of capacitors for the SE analog board that I missed?

thanks 

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9 hours ago, babelhoo said:

Hi, does the SE/30 has the exact same analog board as de original SE?  if not, is there a complete list of capacitors for the SE analog board that I missed?

thanks 

I own a copy of "Mac Classic & SE Repair and Upgrade Secrets" by Larry Pina.  Chapter 2 is "SE Analog Board Repairs" and says the following:

 

Three SE Analog Boards

 

Few people realize it, but any SE can be equipped with one of three different analog boards:

 

Revision A

P/N 820-0206-A 630-0147

1986 Apple Computer (Korea)

 

Revision B
P/N 820-0206-B 630-0147
1986, 87 Apple Computer (Singapore)

 

Revision C
P/N 820-0206-C 630-0147
1986, 87, 88 Apple Computer (Singapore)

 

It doesn't matter whether you have an original SE, a late-model SE FDHD, or an SE/30.  Due to the official board-swap policy, any one of the three analog boards might be installed.  To find out which board you're dealing with (A, B, or C), you have to open the computer and check for model identification.  All three boards are marked along the top left edge. Because this area is normally hidden by the chassis, you may have to remote the analog board to read the revision letter.

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Thanks JDW.  It seems I have a revision B, but made in Korea.  Was it also normal that apple completed some details by handwriting with a sharpie? (see attached picture)

In any case, I can consider the original list above valid for my board?  I need to change the flyback transformer, so I think it's a good opportunity to recap as well.  I cannot find the big C15 3.9mfd cap locally, so I guess I'll have to order it from Digikey (if they ship abroad).

IMG_0777.HEIC

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Yes, Apple has commonly used a Sharpie pen to mark the board revision on various analog and power supply boards in vintage compact Macs, so that is nothing to be concerned about.  For example, the following is one of the photos in my Flickr collection of a Mac 128k/512k analog board with a Sharpie-written board revision letter:

 

630-0102-E: Speaker Area.jpg

 

Whether you order from Digi-Key or from Mouser, you need to consider the cost of shipping. I think it’s best to buy all the caps you need from either of those vendors so that the cost of shipping is less painful. I used Mouser (see the Mouser cap list in my earlier post in this thread) and had them ship to my address in Japan.   I bought three of each of those capacitors so I could recap multiple boards.  

 

Mouser lets you assign notes to each capacitor you put in your cart, and those notes are printed on a white label affixed to the plastic bags containing the capacitors. So in other words, if you type in “C15“ on your replacement 3.9 µF capacitor in your Mouser cart, that “C15“ marking will appear on the label affixed to the bag containing the capacitor and make it easier for you to know which capacitors are which when you get them. 

 

The capacitors should be the same across the board revisions. But you should pull your analog board and check what the stock values are to be 100% sure.  If you notice any significant differences as compared to the capacitor lists I provided in my earlier post, please report those differences in a new post in this thread. 

 

I have recapped one analog board so far with the “Mouser“ list of caps in my earlier post and I didn’t have a problem with any of them, not even C15. They all fit just fine and were the right values.

 

I plan to make another YouTube video soon about the recapping of the analog board, and it just so happens that I plan to replace the flyback transformer on the analog board I will use in that video too.   However, it may be a few weeks before that video is complete. Even so, the capacitor lists in my earlier post are still valid and should serve you well. 

 

 

Edited by JDW

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On 1/22/2017 at 4:19 PM, joethezombie said:

Those are for the power supplies.  For the analog board, I just finished a recap.  Here's the parts I used from digikey.

Please note, C15 (3.9uF 35V bipolar) is no longer available.  There are some on eBay, but I don't really trust capacitors from eBay.  So, I used a high frequency switching film capacitor, which should work well other than the different shape.

 

Thank you for the reference.  I got right on it.

 

-CH-

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