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Simon_Carr

Fitting a SCSI2SD in a 68k Mac

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Neat little box!

I would try applying some power to the SCSI2SD since I do not believe the Plus supplies termination power.

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I use that same enclosure for the virtual zip drive setup I described previously in the thread. It is handy, but the card is somewhat hard to change while the scsi2sd is in the case. A small cut in the case might make it easier to get adult sized fingers in there.

 

I ordered a PCI SCSI card, to see if the v6 scsi2sd can perform any better in my power macintosh 7500. I'm curious to see the result or improvement, if any, over the internal scsi bus. 

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14 minutes ago, Skate323k137 said:

I use that same enclosure for the virtual zip drive setup I described previously in the thread. It is handy, but the card is somewhat hard to change while the scsi2sd is in the case. A small cut in the case might make it easier to get adult sized fingers in there.

 

I ordered a PCI SCSI card, to see if the v6 scsi2sd can perform any better in my power macintosh 7500. I'm curious to see the result or improvement, if any, over the internal scsi bus. 

It wont be much of improvement, correct me wrong it has internal 10mbs SCSI, the SCSI2SD v6 is also 10mbs as well?
Cheers

AP

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AP, You are most likely correct regarding speed. 

 

Things rarely run at their max, so I'm hoping a 40MB scsi card opens things up. If not I'm happy to spend 15 bucks documenting that it didn't help lol.

 

For no reason in particular I trust the scsi2sd to actually carry that speed more than the mac. I know for example the external bus is 5mb not 10 on the powermac. So I doubt the internal performance of the scsi bus and it may be a bottleneck. Like you say though probably not a big one given the scsi2sd max speed. 

 

 

Edited by Skate323k137

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It will be interesting to see how the v6 performs in the 7500.

 

On a IIfx, I was receiving 1598 KB/sec on the v6, and 1200 KB/sec with the v5.

But, pop the v6 onto a Jackhammer, and I was getting 6054 KB/sec.

But VERY nice to have 0.0ms average seek time and 2.3ms average access time.

 

Note however, that there is a known issue with v6 and write performance. I've conversed a bit with Micheal, and he believes at writes after 65536 bytes, the SCSI2SD is falling back to single-sector transfers.  This will limit the sustained write speed, but only on files larger than 65536 bytes.  He's currently working the issue and hopes for a fix soon.

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The good news is the v6 runs great already on the internal bus. It's certainly acceptable. And writes are definitely faster than v5 in practice. However reads and boot time are about the same between the v5 and v6 in the same 7500.

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Here are some news for SCSI2SD and Mac Plus:

I used the description of MOS8_030. The vendor etc. were Seagate and ST225N. Device Size: 8 GB; HD SC Setup formated 20 MB. OS 6.0.8

Then I was able to format the 8 GB SD with Lido 7.56. I installed 4 Partitions (First 1 GB; 2-4: 2GB). Formatting and partitioning was done in Lido. Now I have 4 drives mounted and the plus booted from the first partition. For me Lido worked and produced a bootable SCSI2SD. When I tried this some weeks ago, it did not work. My SCSI2SD has firmware 4.8 (former was 4.7) and I use the newest software. I think the settings in the general settings tab are very important for creating bootable SCSI2SD for a Mac plus.

Martin

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On 5/24/2018 at 10:54 PM, joethezombie said:

Ah, good to hear.  Do keep us posted with the PCI SCSI implementation performance. 

Received a 40 MB ATTO scsi PCI card. Had no issues getting it going at all; plug and play.

 

Testing so far, I'm just timing reboots. This limited testing has demonstrated that the main improvement really is the upgrade from SCSISD v5 to v6. For both v5 and v6 devices, I set SCSI2, parity, and unit attention.

Complete reboot times, identical mac/system folder, OS 9.1:

(I count this as time from clicking "reboot" until being at a functional and loaded desktop)

SCSI2SD V5

Internal Bus: 2:08

SCSI PCI Bus: 2:12 

 

(so, testing inconclusive and/or the bottleneck is the v5 device).

 

-

 

SCSI2SD V6

Internal Bus: 1:45

SCSI PCI Bus: 1:40

 

I did these a few times. The 'winner' is V6 on the PCI card, but the PCI card affects it only by a slim (not statistically notable) margin. It did seem to fly through loading extensions on the PCI card.

 

Do you know good ways for me to benchmark read/write speed on OS9? 

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17 minutes ago, Skate323k137 said:

Received a 40 MB ATTO scsi PCI card. Had no issues getting it going at all; plug and play.

 

Testing so far, I'm just timing reboots. This limited testing has demonstrated that the main improvement really is the upgrade from SCSISD v5 to v6. For both v5 and v6 devices, I set SCSI2, parity, and unit attention.

Complete reboot times, identical mac/system folder, OS 9.1:

(I count this as time from clicking "reboot" until being at a functional and loaded desktop)

SCSI2SD V5

Internal Bus: 2:08

SCSI PCI Bus: 2:12 

 

(so, testing inconclusive and/or the bottleneck is the v5 device).

 

-

 

SCSI2SD V6

Internal Bus: 1:45

SCSI PCI Bus: 1:40

 

I did these a few times. The 'winner' is V6 on the PCI card, but the PCI card affects it only by a slim (not statistically notable) margin. It did seem to fly through loading extensions on the PCI card.

 

Do you know good ways for me to benchmark read/write speed on OS9? 

Best way is to use norton system info and do disk benchmark there

Cheers

AP

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Perfect, thanks for that info.

 

Nothing groundbreaking here. The discs basically tied between internal bus and SCSI PCI card. Using overall norton scores you wouldn't notice a difference.

 

The only notable differences;

 

the v5 saw a 5% improvement in both random read and write on the PCI card. Any sustained read/writes of length were the same speed regardless of internal or PCI SCSI bus.

 

the v6, in contrast, saw a very small loss in random read/write (2% or less upon retesting). This might be a fair trade in practice, because in all the testing, the only noted advantage anywhere was a 15% increase in sustained read speed for the v6 on the PCI bus. The norton test for 256k sequential read went from 7843 K/s to 9055 K/sec.  These were the 2 fastest speeds in all of the benchmarking, belonging to the internal bus and SCSI card respectively.

 

So for long [sequential] reads it seems the internal bus will cap out before a PCI card. It's nothing I would go out of my way to do, but it seems to save a few seconds on reboots or loading large files, so I may as well leave it this way.

Edited by Skate323k137

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Ok I got my SCSI2SD today so I decided to hook it up and see if I could get my Macintosh Classic to recognize it.  It came with a 4GB card.  So far I've:

 

1. I updated the firmware

2. Left the general settings as is

3. Changed the device 1 settings to the recommended settings in the first post (2GB partition)

4. Set the SCSI ID to 2 so I could still boot from my main hard drive

5. Put the SCSI2SD into an external HD enclosure and hooked it via the port in the back

6. Ran the patched version of Apples HD Setup tool 7.3.5

 

The tool saw the SCSI2SD at ID 2 and said that it wasn't initialized.  So I clicked Initialize and the little hourglass type symbol appeared and the amber light on the SCSI2SD lit up.  I thought all was well and good, but it's been at the Initialize and Verify step for over an hour now.  I'm not sure what's going on.

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27 minutes ago, Tempest said:

I thought all was well and good, but it's been at the Initialize and Verify step for over an hour now.  I'm not sure what's going on.

It's doing a low-level format, which takes a while. There is actually a way to skip the low-level formatting in newer versions of Apple HD SC Setup including 7.3.5. If you hold down the command key when you press Initialize, it skips the low-level formatting and does a quick format instead.

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I agree with the above post. Also try a new sd card if at all possible. I spent days chasing ghosts with a bad card in a good config, because it basically works until you do a long write. If the led is stuck on and not rapidly pulsing, suspect a bad card. 

Edited by Skate323k137

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So it made a tiny little partition like the setup instructions said it would, but I couldn't remove it because it said it was in use.  I think this is because I had already copied some files over it (I forgot to check the partition size).  If I reboot can I delete that partition or do I have to reinitialize the drive?

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If you can boot from any other system disk you can work with the drive. You will probably want to just re-do the whole disk with the partition(s) you want. If you want to run different versions of system software, you can always make a couple partitions to make it easier. 

 

No need to long format though. You should be able to redo it in moments. 

Edited by Skate323k137

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Attempted to connect SCSI2SD on Macintosh Portable - via external SCSI Port - have I missed something?
 

It is working without issues (even boots up) in PowerBook 3400, 8600, LC475, LC2, PBG3 PDQ - All macs is done via external as SCSI2SD is in external case.

 

What happens? If I connect SCSI2SD and turn it on - you'll see ? floppy icon, as soon you switch it off and disconnect SCSI2SD then it'll boot - would it be the settings or something Ive missed?

Cheers

AP

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Assuming it's not a SCSI ID conflict, what did you use to format the SD card and what version of Mac OS are you trying to boot and how large is the partition/drive?

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7 hours ago, MOS8_030 said:

Assuming it's not a SCSI ID conflict, what did you use to format the SD card and what version of Mac OS are you trying to boot and how large is the partition/drive?

That what I though too - its set as ID 1, formatted with Apple HD SC as it'll be standard format, it as pre-installed system 7.1 on it which the Portable would be able to boot off it.

 

Im using v5 board which it should have active terminator?

Cheers

AP

Edited by AlpineRaven

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4 hours ago, AlpineRaven said:

That what I though too - its set as ID 1, formatted with Apple HD SC as it'll be standard format, it as pre-installed system 7.1 on it which the Portable would be able to boot off it.

 

Im using v5 board which it should have active terminator?

Cheers

AP

That should do it.

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1 hour ago, AlpineRaven said:

Does external SCSI2SD need to be powered for Portable? Still cannot get it working.
Cheers

AP

I would assume so, power being at a premium on that system.

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