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raoulduke

IIgs Networking Boot Disk

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Well... the basic question was how do I fit networking onto an 800k disk when I keep getting space errors. I may have been trying to install the wrong version, though. It seems the correct version is not Appleshare but Appleshare, 3.5 Disk (which in hindsight makes perfect sense but was not obvious to me).

I think one can read these instructions and sort of drop off before the actual remote boot. Having said that, for whatever reason using his instructions the farthest I've gotten is to an Appleshare extension during the load screen. But I can't actually boot into the GUI.

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Edited by Bunsen

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Try taking the picture with a slower shutter speed and a smaller aperture if those options  are changeable on the digi-cam, and then with a Pic Fixer, rotate the image to the right 90 degrees.


 


As I remember GS-OS, it was more like Mac System 6 and allowed Apple/Local Talk through the printer serial port. It was control-able through a control panel. There was limited Ethernet Cards for the II+/IIe and each with their own drivers, how they talked to the GS-OS I do not know.


 


There were IDE and SCSI Hard Drive cards for the IIGS, and many used them to connect a hard drive and put on the GS-OS on it and add to it those functions you need to it like AppleShare. 800K is not enough for everything and GS-OS with it.


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Well so that's sort of my issue.  With 1mb of RAM and a max 800k swappable disk, I'd actually rather use a RAM disk - I have my eye on SCSI too but my gut tells me I'm too cheap currently.  So my question was really more can one fit the base system and Appletalk/Share onto an 800k disk.
 

Because I'd rather only keep minimum boot req's on a disk and run everything off the network.  I seriously thought about buying a mem expander (interesting sidenote; it is not (currently on eBay) cheaper to buy a 256k card and populate it as compared to just buying a 1mb card) and use like a 1.5mb RAM disk [1mb built in].

Edited by raoulduke

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I would see which is cheaper and easier to get. There were 1MB (and I remember seeing a 16MB though it might have 2 or 3 boards running together) boards for the IIgs, most of the time loaded up 1/2 the RAM and then you had to fill in the rest.

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My inference from mostly browsing pictures on eBay is - and you're right there for sure are 4 (and 8-) mb memory cards, but most have a very different design than the Apple cards, and so it's not simply an issue of populating.  I have wondered about actually changing the chips, but I've found it hard to find documentation.

 

As to price, the cheapest eBay 256k seems to run about $16 and 1mb seems to run about $25.  Populating the 256k to 1mb [24 additional chips] was I think $13 through Alibaba. 

 

WHOA!  Wait, there's this though.  Doesn't that look like it just accepts some type of standard SIMM?  That's pretty interesting.  I can't find the documentation they allude to, though.

Edited by raoulduke

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Well so I'm wondering which 8mb one can swap in...  I get the impression 8 is the limit (8 is enough?) but I could be wrong.

 

Additionally, I think one would need to modify the card - at least adding two of those other chips; not sure about the resistors.

Edited by raoulduke

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I think I lost the plot here, what is it you are trying to accomplish? Do you have an Appleshare Server set up and you're trying to install GS/OS on it to allow netbooting later (which is what the article is about) or are you trying to create a one floppy boot-to-the-gui-with-network-enabled system disk? If it's the latter, well, no, you can't really do that.

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Yeah... the latter...  That's disappointing.  So is what you're saying that his 3.5 Appleshare option is really only for netbooting?  Because that would probably explain why the Desktop won't open.

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That cites to this. I found the other's organization honestly hard to follow. I found this most helpful even though it's for System 5.0.

 

* Prep: I am not sure if System 6.0.1 is compatible with all machines. You need 4 DD 3.5" floppy disks - format one as ProDOS and use DiskDup+ [which is Shareware] to make 3 GSOS install disks: Install, System Tools 1, and System Tools 2. And you need some way to manipulate those disks with GCR, the easiest way of which is having a bridge Mac. You need to set your Mac AppleShare server up, which in my case with 7.5.3 requires adding the IIgs's name as a user before you login with that name on your IIgs (I forget if that's true of 8+).

 

* Boot with Install in the main drive and your blank disk in the other. Go to customize, install at a minimum "AppleShare, 3.5 Disk"; I also install "File System: HFS FST" because my server's folder is in HFS. However, I do not know if that is necessary. [You cannot actually fit "AppleShare, 3.5 Disk"/"AppleShare" and "*System 6: 800k Disk", so you cannot actually install System 6, hence no actual Finder/Desktop - just a Launcher. Don't worry about the AppleShare warning, click "Perform Update" and get ready to swap some disks.

 

After it's done installing, hit quit, and then probably reinsert your Install disk. Cancel out of the Launcher, and go to File>Shutdown>Restart. Boot from the boot disk and, when it prompts, enter an "Administrator Name". You will then boot into that Launcher again [i think I just gave up there too early before].

 

* Cancel out of the launcher and press *Cmd-Ctrl-Esc* to launch the "Desk Accessories". Select "Control Panel" then "Slots". If Rom 1 (or 0?) set Slot 7 to AppleTalk; if Rom 3 set either Slot 1 or 2 to AppleTalk. Quit the "Slot" settings, the "Control Panel", and then restart (through File>Shutdown>Restart).

 

* It will boot back into that launcher; cancel again. Go to "Control panels" under the "Apple Menu" and double click "AppleShare" (or select it and click "Open"). Select and open your server and then enter your "Name" and "Password" (if you set one) based on the user name you set up earlier on your Mac. Then select any folders you want and hit okay.

 

The one annoying thing I alluded to earlier is that this method of file management prevents the use of an actual Finder. I tried writing an "Easy Update" disk but you can't run both simultaneously. Since you need the actual ProDOS files you need Disk Copy images (.dsk, or additional software), so I found a 400mb .dsk archive that I'm downloading to my 1gb stock Performa 5400 HD. And that will now be my Apple II server.

 

Any good threads/FAQs on the duration (& other issues, etc.) of a RAM Disk?

Edited by raoulduke

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Do you have hardware capable of running Linux (and/or a VM with Linux) and either a hardware Localtalk->Ethernet bridge or an old beige Mac with an ethernet port you can run the Localtalk bridge software on? You can get an "out of the box" software distribution right here that comes with a preconfigured GS/OS installation you can boot over the network, no floppy disks required *at all*. Dorking around trying to install GS/OS to a RAMdisk every time you turn the computer on sounds like possibly the worst of all possible plans ever.

 

Another relatively low-cost solution (compared to the street prices of a working SCSI setup or an exotic high-capacity RAM card) is the Floppy Emu; as of fairly recently the device has the ability to emulate a SmartPort hard disk. (Basically the Apple II equivalent of an HD-20.) It won't be as fast as a real hard disk but for casual use it's adequate.

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I too would recommend the FloppyEmu for this. Net booting requires that you have two machines up and running for one to boot off the other, and in my case, I need a machine to be able to stand alone and do what it has to do alone.

 

I do not know what your needs are and why you need net booting, my needs are different from yours and everyone else's.

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If you have a localtalk->ethernet hardware bridge and run a server on your network anyway the network boot solution works pretty well. (Or, in my case I actually have the server installed on an ancient laptop, which means if I want to set up the IIgs in some arbitrary location it's still not much harder than plugging together an external hard disk.) It does get a little sketchy for all-the-time use if you need to have a Mac as the intermediate.

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I had basically the same thoughts, particularly because I want to minimize disk switching.  I also wonder in hindsight if I actually had to add a user on my mac.  When I have time I'll work on this a bit more and post again.

 

Re: floppy emu, I'm debating it because I also gather it's not format-specific (I haven't read much but I mean I assume you can partition it?) such that I could use it pretty much for all my Apple machines, anyway (my IIe has a 5.25 interface)?

Edited by raoulduke

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Note that to do the NetBoot thing with the Apple software requires *specific* versions of the "real" Appleshare server software (not the personal sharing support), as detailed in that long complex document you referenced earlier. I'm sure the software *is* available on (insert warez site here), but you will have to follow the instructions to the letter. The nice thing about the a2server linux solution is it's all pre-installed and pretty much "just works" as long as you have a bridge. (I was able to use it to bootstrap my bare metal IIgs with *no floppies whatsover* instead of using ADTPro; once booted up I could use the "Asimov" program to write disk images of software stored on the server to floppy.)
 

Re: floppy emu, I'm debating it because I also gather it's not format-specific (I haven't read much but I mean I assume you can partition it?) such that I could use it pretty much for all my Apple machines, anyway (my IIe has a 5.25 interface)?

 

The Floppy Emu has some specific limitations relating to emulating 5.25 drives that are... kinda annoying. (As cool as it is I just have to say it.) Which style of controller/drives does your IIe have, the old "Disk ][" setup where each drive has a separate 20 pin ribbon cable to the controller, or the 19 pin daisy chain connector? The FloppyEmu only *really* fully supports the latter, and you need to have the "enhanced" cable option if you want to be able to write to disks.

For a IIgs it can either emulate a 3.5 inch floppy, or, in "Smartport" mode, it can emulate *four* separate hard drives, each of which can be up to 2GB in size. It can also do the "Smartport" thing on later IIc's (the original "ROM 255" version doesn't support it) and IIe's equipped with the "Liron" controller. (You can tell this apart from the "regular" 19 pin controller by the presence of an IWM chip on it.)

Edited by Gorgonops

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(When I first saw Warez as a kid (b. 1985), it was not at all obvious to me (for years...) that it's wares, so I internalized that pronunciation as Juarez.)

 

My IIe has both; I just recently installed the 19-pin connector, which is why I mentioned it (before that it really would have just been usable on my IIgs - but even that is beneficial because then one or the other can be a workhorse machine at least to make IIgs disks - the IIgs would be better for that).  Alright... so it's basically down to price.  It's going to be a while before I can justify it.  The IIgs spread was more than I normally like to spend, and my attempt to offset it on eBay has not been going fruitfully lol.  Maybe for spring break.  Thanks for the advice.

Edited by raoulduke

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You can't fit Appleshare and Finder onto a 800k disk all at once, that's why you are getting the launcher. You can sorta cheat and copy Finder to your Appleshare server and run it from there if you want. Its slow, but it works. You can even set it to auto-run Finder from the Appleshare server with the SetStart control panel, you just have to make sure the share is accessible and set to mount on boot. (you will be prompted for username and password if needed)

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Hey Gorgonops, btw, I finally got the Ramdisk idea running yesterday... It's totally impractical as you noted.  It was pretty cool, though.  Finder and networking actually don't need that much - probably just over 800k ironically.  I had several hundred k left over on a 1,248kB ramdisk.

 

I do have some weirder ideas, that I'm abusing the germaneness of this thread to describe.  I got an Atari 1040ST as I've noted elsewhere and after getting the VGA and mouse adapters up and running I realized there's a problem with the floppy (I hope...) drive.  So I wound up modding a semi-standard 1.44mb Compaq drive because the ST uses 34-pin Shugart interfaces, thankfully.  This means that (I'm pretty sure - I've seen TOS 2.6 or something ROM noted as a limitation, though) the machine can at least in theory read HD disks.  I don't know precisely what that means.  However, there's a floppy to Smartmedia adapter that (as I understand it) allowed the use of HD floppy drives as scalable smartmedia readers - and could be used on any HD drive at least in theory.  I'm seriously inclined to try that on the ST if I can actually use HD disks.  I'm also then inclined to try it on some Macs, and then - to cycle back - I think I've read about HD floppies on IIgs.  I'm assuming it was a single card that's obscenely rare and prohibitively expensive?

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The cheaper (~$20) older versions of the Raspberry Pi would be plenty enough power to run A2Server:
 

Update 9-Nov-15: A2SERVER 1.2.5 is available. It has support for Raspberry Pi 2 Model B and every other Raspberry Pi

 

... which is making me wonder why I spent ~$100 on an IDE card.

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HThis means that (I'm pretty sure - I've seen TOS 2.6 or something ROM noted as a limitation, though) the machine can at least in theory read HD disks.  I don't know precisely what that means.  However, there's a floppy to Smartmedia adapter that (as I understand it) allowed the use of HD floppy drives as scalable smartmedia readers - and could be used on any HD drive at least in theory.  I'm seriously inclined to try that on the ST if I can actually use HD disks.

 

Only the very late "Mega" STs have a controller capable of using high-density floppies "out of the box". There are mods out there to overclock the controller in earlier models to the requisite data rate but they come with gotchyas.

 

In any case, those Smartmedia readers for floppies don't work without a driver. To make a long story short, you know these things?

 

640px-Cassette_adapter_iSmart_Car_IC880-

 

Those SmartMedia cards use the read-write head in a floppy drive the same way, *BUT* they don't actually emulate a floppy disk. The driver is necessary to make the host system understand that it's just using the floppy controller as a data channel over which high-level commands are sent to communicate with the storage device.

 

So...

 

 

I'm also then inclined to try it on some Macs, and then - to cycle back - I think I've read about HD floppies on IIgs.  I'm assuming it was a single card that's obscenely rare and prohibitively expensive?

 

It also won't work in Macs, not unless you have a driver for it.

 

And, high density floppy drives for the IIgs do indeed require a special controller. Apple made one, which is indeed rare and expensive and has to be paired with a Macintosh "SuperDrive" external floppy, and there were also third-party ones that worked with normal Shugart drives. (Those might be cheaper, if you can find one, maybe?)

Edited by Gorgonops

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Darn.  I was under the distinct impression you didn't need a driver...  I was having trouble making that logical leap, and this would explain why.  Since that'd be the only real utility, screw it.  [Either way I figured that solution wouldn't work for the IIgs.  Interesting that the adapters exist, but a cursory search suggests I'm not going to want to pay for one.  As for [this] ST, the drive works and it is an HD drive [sFD-321B rev WT-05], but I'm not sure if the ROM will support it; I'd guess not but we'll see when I get a chance.]

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As for [this] ST, the drive works and it is an HD drive [sFD-321B rev WT-05], but I'm not sure if the ROM will support it; I'd guess not but we'll see when I get a chance.]

 

HD floppy drives are usually compatible with DD controllers *in low density mode*, that's not the problem. The question is whether the controller in your ST physically supports the higher data rate. That is literally the difference between DD and HD capable controllers, the bits are clocked twice as fast (500kbps vs 250kbps) when working with an HD disk. If your machine lacks the ability to clock the controller chip at two different speeds then it's not going to work with HD disks. (Again, unless it's modified; the post I linked to describes what is essentially an overclocking mod that will make an older machine capable of the 500kbps data rate but it doesn't work perfectly because it overclocks other things that really shouldn't be and causes issues with reading DD disks.)

 

One oddball exception: They sold special HD floppy drives for Amigas that worked without changing the controller, but the drives *themselves* spun at 150 RPM instead of the normal 300 RPM when an HD disk is inserted. DEW THE MATH and you'll find it's the same effect.

Edited by Gorgonops

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No I know; and the guy who helped me with the mod indicated that removing the HD sensor would force it into low density mode.  But as I said I don't think that matters, I would guess this machine cannot support it.  I think I misread this post, which was where I was getting the 2.6; you need to replace the floppy controller and then probably also need TOS 2.6; that makes sense.

 

*Oh wait, lol, I already knew it couldn't do HD; the format options are one- or two-sided.

Edited by raoulduke

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