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Solid State Drive (SSD) in SE/30


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#21 tt

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 09:56 PM

Once you have a CF card formatted by the SE/30, can you still read the card in MacOS X via a card reader to transfer files?

Could the formatting have been done via an emulator in the first place?

Please backup and copy that floppy. Preserve softwaredeletion is irreversible.


#22 rimmer

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 10:07 PM

You need to format the drive in a computer running system 7.x or equivalent.

But, popping it in a card-reader on the OS X machine afterwards, gives read- and write access to the HFS-partition.

Don't know about the emulator, though.
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#23 tt

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 07:42 AM

You need to format the drive in a computer running system 7.x or equivalent.


Based on my test with a USB drive, you can format it with a disk utility. Since I have Snow Leopard (no HFS format/write support), I had to use TransMac via WinXP, which is really maddening. If someone knows of a similar Mac based tool, please chime in. I was then able to open the drive in Basilisk and transfer files to the drive. Once I get my CF card, I will try the same thing.

This thread helped get me going: http://68kmla.org/fo...hp?f=15&t=11290.

Please backup and copy that floppy. Preserve softwaredeletion is irreversible.


#24 neko77

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:35 AM

Hi

Do you think that this will work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/... ... 886wt_1140

It's the cheapest scsi adapter that I have found. Coupled with this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/... ... 750wt_1010

We could have 4 GB of SSD, with a spending of 27.99 + 19.99 $us.

(Sorry about my english, I'm not native speaker).
Macintosh Plus - Macintosh Classic - MacBook - iMac Alu

#25 Mars478

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:49 AM

Why buy that when you can buy this?!
http://cgi.ebay.com/... ... 359wt_1010
iOwn: MBA 1.83GZ, iMacC2D 2.4GZ, iMacG5, iMacG4 x2, iBookG4 1GHZ, eMac700, iMac350, iMac233, B&WG3,400, BWG3 350, iBook466Grayx2, iBook300blue, Performa6214CD, Mac512k, MacClassic2, MacIIcix2, Mac IIFX, PM8100/110, PowerBook150, Apple][e, And lots of iPhones. [wiki]User:Mars478[/wiki]

#26 JDW

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 03:43 AM

Why buy that when you can buy this?!

If they only had one of those in 50-pin SCSI form we'd be set!
(Yes, I'm fully aware of IDE-SCSI adapters. I am talking about a single tiny unit that does the CF to SCSI adaptation.)

Even so, this solution is not as idea as a dedicated SSD due to the limited number of writes on Flash memories.

#27 johnklos

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 04:13 AM

2.5" SATA SSD drives which would constitute "dedicated SSD" can be used with the rather expensive Acard SATA to 50 pin SCSI giving you a very nice 3.5" 50 pin SCSI form factor with hardly any power draw.

#28 bbraun

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 06:12 AM

Even so, this solution is not as idea as a dedicated SSD due to the limited number of writes on Flash memories.


Typical SSDs are rated to 1million write cycles. Cheapie CF cards are rated to 1/10th that. However, many of the faster CF cards (266x and 300x+) which you'd really want to use for a hard disk replacement anyway, are rated to the same 1million write cycles as your typical SSD. SanDisk sells industrial CF cards rated to twice that. Additionally, unless you're really using all the space, most of the unused flash blocks will still be used to distribute the write cycles.

Low end CF cards also have a bit of a stutter to them as the wear leveling kicks in which is largely addressed by the higher end cards that also typically have the higher write cycle rating, which is why I say you'd really want to use the higher end CF cards as a hard disk replacement regardless of write cycle concerns. And even at the higher end CF cards, it's a more cost effective solution IMO.

None of that addresses the form factor and ease of mounting concerns though. The SCSI-IDE converts and IDE-CF adapters are a mixed bag in that department. They do allow for some interesting mounting options, such as the CF card accessible via an unused floppy bay or nubus slot. But typically require much more time to mount properly regardless of the CF accessibility mounting or stock internal drive replacement mounts.

#29 JDW

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 07:15 AM

If there was a simple, low-cost 50-pin SCSI SSD or CF card solution out there, no doubt we'd all being linking to the product here on 68kMLA. For who among us doesn't want such a low-heat, 100% silent, low-power solution for their vintage Mac? But there is no one solution that fills the bill. I still don't like multiple adapters. However, it is interesting to read about the 1 million write cycle CF cards. I did not know that.

For myself, I just want something along the lines of 4.5GB to 8GB in size, with 50-pin SCSI that will work internally in my SE30. If I can get everything I need (CF card, cables, adapters -- everything) for under $200, assured to work perfectly as any normal spinning platter hard disk would, then I am ready to buy. But I would want it to read and write AT LEAST as fast as the 7200rpm SCSI drive I am currently using.

#30 johnklos

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 07:37 AM

Almost:
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820183192
http://www.acard.com...e&type1_idno=11
I don't know why the price of the Acard ARS-2000SUP went UP - I bought mine for $140 each - but it can't be beat.

#31 bbraun

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 08:05 AM

In my SE/30, I am currently using an R-IDSC-E SCSI to IDE converter purchased off ebay, which is still for sale for ~$35.
http://cgi.ebay.com/...31#ht_500wt_991
I'm also using an IDE-CF adapter available on ebay for ~$5.
http://cgi.ebay.com/...8#ht_1939wt_751
The mounting plate unscrews, and I just have the bare card plugged directly into the r-idsc-e scsi-ide converter, no extra cables.

I'm currently using a $20 Kingston 133x 8GB CF card from buy.com, which works fine for my purposes, but I would recommend something higher end for your requirements. As for speed, I have no benchmarks and you've provided no benchmarks to compare against your drive so I can't help in that department.
LEM has some benchmarks: http://lowendmac.com...arks/se30.shtml
And according to the wikipedia article on CF speeds, almost any CF card you buy today will be able to max out the SE/30's SCSI bus. http://en.wikipedia....ki/CompactFlash The higher end cards will be more likely to sustain those speeds without the wear leveling causing stalls. Since CF is parallel IDE, the IDE-CF adapter is straight through connections and won't slow performance. The R-IDSC-E adapter seems to be able to max out SCSI-2 speeds, so I don't think that'll be an issue either.

However, mounting it is the downfall with this approach IMO. The R-IDSC-E SCSI-IDE converter is a bare board, as is the IDE-CF adapter which makes mounting in a metal case awkward. I kind of hacked it together with a plastic 3.5" drive sled from a 6200, and mounted that into the SE/30. I wouldn't recommend doing what I did, so unfortunately you're on your own here.

#32 Bunsen

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 01:16 PM

Do you think that this will work?

Should do, yes.

this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/... ... 750wt_1010

That's much cheaper than I was expecting! Even a 4GB Compact Flash would cost that or more, wouldn't it?

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#33 johnklos

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 04:53 PM

You can get a 4 gig CF card for less than $15, or less than $20 for a fast one or a good brand. On the other hand, $27 is pretty good, especially considering the fact that you don't need the CF to IDE adapter.

I just thought I'd mention that other than using CF cards as boot devices, I'm using several as the main drives in HP Jornada computers which are running NetBSD. The most active of them has been running as a slave DNS server for about 500 domains and as a router for a subnet of public IPs. The first card I got for that machine died after about six months, but I realized that was because I was using filesystem journaling which writes the same small areas of the disk over and over and over, very frequently. When I got the replacement card, I turned off journaling, and it's been running without the slightest complaint for a year now.

I have a feeling that the above eBay item or any decent CF card these days will last just about forever in an SE/30.

#34 Bunsen

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 06:33 PM

Yeah, I tend to agree.

Re prices: It's been a while since I checked, and I forget how quickly computer related stuff gets cheaper.

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#35 MacJunky

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 03:46 AM

I suppose the SCSI bus is hindered by age, and by a dog-slow system bus.

Very much so.

These are not SE/30s and not SCSI but you get the idea.
http://poopr.org/ima...4hlu6ms6b9a.png
Current system (Beige G3 433MHz) - was using a Kingston Elite Pro or something 4GB 133x CF card
The Quadra 630 is just the default comparison result that I forgot to remove before taking the screenie. It would be using whatever HDD it came with I guess. It is not mine.
6500/225 4GB 133x CF - was using the 4GB CF
6500/225 64mb r7000 - was using a 6GB Western Digital Caviar from a rev D tray loading iMac.
P580/40 ST15150N - was using a Seagate ST15150N on the SCSI bus
Beige G3 433 rad7000 - was using the 6GB WDC
Performa 580 33MHz & 40MHz - were using the 6GB WDC

The Performa 580 and PowerMac 6500 were both running Mac OS 7.6.1. The Beige G3 was running Mac OS 9.2.2.
It would have helped if I had set each one up specifically for benching. New OS install, fresh boot, as similar of settings as possible, etc. These results are just what I have ended up collecting over time. Not professional at all. :S

Either way, I can certainly say that a 133x CF card will not result in an easily noticeable difference to most people on 68k IDE. I am not entirely sure about 68k SCSI though since I have no SCSI->IDE devices to compare. Still, unless you are using a decent PowerMac, a CF card will not hamper you much.
LC 630, P580CD, LC 575, Mac Plus X2, PowerBook 160, PowerBook 150 X2, PowerBook 145

#36 JDW

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 04:53 AM

...unless you are using a decent PowerMac, a CF card will not hamper you much.

I don't want to be hampered at all. Indeed, I want a speed boost for reads and writes.

Yet, with all this talk of what's possible, why then is there no one among us with comparative benchmarks?

I want to see benchmark performance of a CF or SSD solution in an SE/30, and then compare that with a fast spinning platter hard drive. Only then can we decided, based on the facts, what is truly faster or better.

#37 johnklos

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 06:58 AM

The difference, if measurable, between CF and SATA on a polled I/O SCSI bus on a 16 MHz m68030 is going to be so insignificant as to be noise. Any CF (except perhaps the slowest, oldest) and any SATA or IDE drive these days will easily be able to sustain 2 MB/sec, which is the maximum you could ever get from an SE/30 SCSI.

If you can measure a difference, it might be on seek times, although I highly doubt that a 2.5" laptop hard drive's seek time is large enough to measure.

I'll stick a CF into my Quadra 605 and compare it with the current SCSI-SATA interface and see if there's any difference, although I don't think that even an '040 will be fast enough to measure the difference.

#38 JDW

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 08:28 AM

The difference, if measurable, between CF and SATA on a polled I/O SCSI bus on a 16 MHz m68030 is going to be so insignificant as to be noise.

Pure speculation until I see actual benchmarks. Benchmarks are very easy too. Most of us have a copy of Norton Utilities, which includes a benchmarking program. There were also other popular benchmarking apps for 68k Macs.

If I had a flash disk solution in my hands right now, I would do the benchmark comparisons and post them for all of us. But I don't have that so I appeal to those of you who do. Cut the speculation and put down some facts. Benchmark numbers speak louder that our "guesses."

#39 bbraun

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 06:20 PM

I can't speak for the others, but I was just trying to share my experiences from using CF in an SE/30 (and other machines) and relevant information on the subject in order to help you with your decision. Personally, I've already made my decisions and have a setup I'm pleased with. I, and I think most of the other posters here, were simply trying to help you achieve the same. Ultimately, it is your decision and what you decide really does not impact the rest of us.

I personally have no need or desire to spend time tracking down benchmarking software, benchmarking my systems, tearing them down, and re-benchmarking in various configurations in order to justify the decisions I made about my setup.

However, since you've been so appreciative of the experiences and advice given so far, and have asked nicely for others to benchmark their systems so you can make a more informed decision, I'm willing to do so.
I do not have a version of Norton Utilities with a disk benchmarking utility, and the TimeDisk utility used in the LEM SE/30 benchmark does not seem to be available. I've also been unsuccessful in locating a working copy of MacBench for the SE/30.
If you would kindly provide the benchmarking tool you would like us to use, and the tests you would like us to run, I'll make an effort to provide you with the requested information.

#40 MacJunky

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 04:05 AM

I know that MacBench 1 will run on the SE/30. I am not sure about version 2(though it does have results for a SE.. so I bet it does) but I have both around. They are also available somewhere online as well.
As far as I know I have no other 68k benching tools that can do HDDs.
LC 630, P580CD, LC 575, Mac Plus X2, PowerBook 160, PowerBook 150 X2, PowerBook 145




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