Something? Nothing?

[mst3k]

I started tearing apart the next two Lisa's from my recent purchase. Both 2/5's?
The Apple inventory tagged Lisa has an odd bit of nonsense where the CRT neck protrudes into the rear board space. Not sure if the rounded sheet metal shielding seen in the second photo (from the other damaged 2/5) was removed or never there in the first place. The copper (?) tape indicates a needed fix to some interference? Also, the black plastic 'tube' which protrudes into the board space on every Lisa I have ever owned is missing on the Apple tagged Lisa. Note too, the different vent holes between the two machines on the bottom (round vs. square) and the horizontal vs. vertical holes beneath the CRT neck shielding.
Converted Lisa 1? Prototype? Crazed hobbyist? Doesn't mean a damn thing? Something? Nothing? I don't know enough about these machines to recognize the import of significant differences in the sheet metal structures.



In other news, doing some preliminary 'board swapping' in one of my working Lisa's produced this interesting 'checkerboard' from one of the bombed Lisa 2/5's CPU board.

 

[mst3k]

Some more oddities from my Apple inventory tagged Lisa:

The back cover is embossed with 'B' (I assume for brightness) and 'F' (focus), whereas these are usually symbols.



And there is an oddity at S279 on the CPU board:



Again, not sure what it means. Something? Nothing?

 

[stepleton]

It's hard to know, but revisions and amendments are common in computer development. You may have an early machine that was kept running even after newer machines were sold with some changes to them.

It would be somewhat interesting to see if any of the boards have identifiers and revision numbers on them. Note how this CPU board has the label 620-0019-H on the upper part of the left-hand side; does yours have a similar marking?

Under the Lisa's "chin", there is usually a sticker with a Lisa's serial number and AppleNet ID; do you have anything like this?

Does this machine have a keyboard? Is it different to other Lisa keyboards?

 

[mst3k]

Hi stepleton. Thanks for taking a look.
This machine did not come with a keyboard.

The CPU board 620-0119-N (stamped 'N'):



Close up:



I/O Board:



Close-up:

Under the Lisa's "chin", there is usually a sticker with a Lisa's serial number and AppleNet ID; do you have anything like this?

Nothing I could find. I'm assuming you meant on the plastics or the metal frame?

There was no label on what looks like an EPROM marked 2333 on the board.

Have you seen the 'B' and 'F' on the back before?
Thanks

 

[stepleton]

N is a newer hardware revision to the PCB photographed on bitsavers, and the CPU board ROMs (341-0346A and 341-0347A) are for a Lisa that has had the square-pixel modification fitted. It's possible that this CPU board is newer than the case, and that the capacitor straddling the LS279 is a bodge added at the factory for that revision. Things like this are not uncommon for the time.

For the I/O board, it's harder to tell; a close inspection paired with an understanding of the amendments made between I/O board revisions could shed some light. Either way, my guess is that it's probably a production (or near-production) I/O board.

It would be interesting to dump the I/O board ROM (the EPROM without a label --- did it fall off?) and see if it corresponds to any known version. I suspect that given the prior owner was interested in running Mac software on their Lisa, it probably will be a familiar edition.

The "chin labels" I was thinking of are affixed to the plastics on the outside of the case of most Lisas. Your other Lisas probably have them. It sounds like this case is missing them.

The B and F labels do ring a bit of a bell, but someone else will have to step in and speak to those more authoritatively than I can. It wouldn't surprise me if it was from an early (and perhaps pre-sale) case revision.

Do the labels above the ports on this Lisa look different to the ones on other Lisa 2/5s that you have?

 

[mst3k]

The "chin labels" I was thinking of are affixed to the plastics on the outside of the case of most Lisas. Your other Lisas probably have them. It sounds like this case is missing them.

I took photo's of the two machines I currently have apart. The machine in question has no 'chin' label and it looks like it never did have a label. However, there is no way to verify that... same situation with the serial number.




I also found this on the floor under my workbench and can assume it came off that EPROM:



I think your theory about a previous owner wanting to run Mac software is correct.

I'm looking for a good picture of the back of a Lisa 1 to see if that 'B' and 'F' are used.

Do the labels above the ports on this Lisa look different to the ones on other Lisa 2/5s that you have?

The labels on the ports on both motherboard trays look the same.
Thanks again for the use of your brain.

 

[mst3k]

And another anomaly?

There appears to be an extra unused video connector?? Though one I am not familiar with.. looks kind of like a compact Mac, but only three plugs.

 

[mst3k]

Oops! I think this tag I found wedged in the sheet metal might be a better fit for the I/O board Lisa.
I'd been working on two Lisa 2/10's and that first tag is probably from one of them?

 

[mst3k]

I apologize for this endless posting, but I keep finding oddities on this machine.

Here is the sheet metal frame with everything removed. The 'whatever it is' Lisa is on the left, a 'normal' 2/5 on the right.
It has two extra feet (circled) and the round vents can be seen across the entire bottom.



Also the extra 'video' cable I found looks like it might be for a peripheral or diagnostics?
It is not hooked directly to the video board but to the motherboard connector at the base.

I'm leaning towards prototype? At least for the case. But who knows? If you do, please let me know too!
Thanks

 

[stepleton]

341-0290-B is a standard Lisa 2 I/O board ROM. It would not surprise me if this is what is found on that sticker-less ROM IC, but only dumping it will tell us for certain.

A connector very similar to the "unused video connector" can be found in the disk cage cavity of all Lisa 1s and Lisa 2/5s (and not the CRT cavity where you have found yours). This is a power connector, to the best of our understanding; it's certainly not carrying video. We've never known there to be any use for it, and the 2/10 does not have it. It's possible that this is a different connector on your machine, or (more likely I think) that during a disassembly sometime in the computer's past, the connector was backed out of the disk cage cavity and into the CRT cavity. (NB: "Disk cage cavity" and "CRT cavity" are my own words for those parts of the Lisa's frame; I don't know an official term for them off the top my my head.)

My Lisa 1 has the regular pictorial/icon markings around the brightness and focus controls and not 'B' and 'F'.

It does seem possible that your case is a prototype case. I am not certain what else to do to attempt to confirm this hypothesis. Maybe you can find pictures of prototype Lisas on the Computer History Museum archives website that will offer further clues?

 

[mst3k]

341-0290-B is a standard Lisa 2 I/O board ROM. It would not surprise me if this is what is found on that sticker-less ROM IC, but only dumping it will tell us for certain.

A connector very similar to the "unused video connector" can be found in the disk cage cavity of all Lisa 1s and Lisa 2/5s (and not the CRT cavity where you have found yours). This is a power connector, to the best of our understanding; it's certainly not carrying video. We've never known there to be any use for it, and the 2/10 does not have it. It's possible that this is a different connector on your machine, or (more likely I think) that during a disassembly sometime in the computer's past, the connector was backed out of the disk cage cavity and into the CRT cavity. (NB: "Disk cage cavity" and "CRT cavity" are my own words for those parts of the Lisa's frame; I don't know an official term for them off the top my my head.)

My Lisa 1 has the regular pictorial/icon markings around the brightness and focus controls and not 'B' and 'F'.

It does seem possible that your case is a prototype case. I am not certain what else to do to attempt to confirm this hypothesis. Maybe you can find pictures of prototype Lisas on the Computer History Museum archives website that will offer further clues?

Thanks stepleton.
I’ve only owned 2/10’s and that cable threw me for a loop.
I’ll do some more hunting but it looks like the innards are pretty standard and the case is odd.
You have a Lisa 1? Not many of you guys around…

 

[mst3k]

My Lisa 1 has the regular pictorial/icon markings around the brightness and focus controls and not 'B' and ‘F’

Does your Lisa 1 have the square vent holes in the sheet metal base of the board cage cavity or the small round ones pictured above?
Thanks again for the help!

PS. I’m still trying to revive my other widget drive…

 

[stepleton]

My Lisa 1 is the one in my user icon and I've had it for nearly 30 years. Despite that, I don't remember whether it has the rectangular or round holes in the sheet metal, and I'm afraid it's not convenient for me to check right now unfortunately. If I had to guess, I'd say the rectangular ones.

 

[mst3k]

One last thing I found...

The front 'kill switch' is missing. The gray and green wires are soldered together and covered.
Plus, there is no mounting hole for the plastic assembly that holds the switch into position.
'Normal' kill switch from 2/5 mounted to frame is on right.



If only the whole thing wasn't a battery bombed mess...

OK. I'm done now.

 

[stepleton]

That's pretty funny. Kinda handy not to need to wedge a Q-tip in there like the rest of us.

 

[ried]

The one with built-in rear feet, round holes, copper shielding behind the CRT, no switch mount, lacking the "black plastic finger" over the CPU, etc. is certainly a pre-production chassis. Neat! Congrats on the find.

Other parts of that machine seem to mostly be from later production runs.

 

[stepleton]

Nitpicking, but I'm always cautious around saying "certainly" with this stuff. I think it's highly likely the case that this is a pre-production chassis, but until I see the paperwork, I never feel sure. There's always a chance that the story could be more interesting: maybe there were early release units in this configuration, sold to dealers or what have you.

If this were Commodore, it seems like you really couldn't be certain whether they were just putting together whatever parts they found in the storeroom that day, although Apple comes across as a lot more disciplined. Do we have any more evidence that they never sold a machine with this case and metalwork?

 

[ried]

I think the asset tag is a clue. Combine that with me being one of the most OCD Lisa people around... yeah. I'd bet the farm on it. There are just too many physical deviations from commercially shipped machines for this one to have been sold at retail. The front interlock switch was a safety mechanism, and I cannot imagine Apple shipping that machine to a consumer without one.

I am speaking only of the chassis itself, as well as the rear panel with B (brightness) and F (focus) markings.

I bet we'll find many of the body panels to read "PTA prototype" debossed on the inside, too, though several examples of those panels have been found on retail machines also. No other changes seem to have been made to the body panels and the PTA prototype markings weren't visible from the outside, so Apple seemingly didn't care that remaining pre-production panels snuck through onto production machines.

Given that Sun Remarketing's fingerprints are on it, this was probably part of their gigantic inventory acquisition from Apple. They probably had several non-standard parts machines as Apple was eager to offload these things at the time.

 

[stepleton]

I guess you can be "OCD" about many things. For me it is about proof. We have very good reason to suspect the things we do (I also believe the frame is pre-production) but no documentary or or even anecdotal evidence to substantiate it, as far as I'm aware. I think in matters of historical record (even trivial ones like these) it pays to have good hygiene about what's certain or what's supposed, since otherwise you have people drawing connections between "facts" that aren't, and eventually you get to Steve Wozniak "inventing" the personal computer or similar.

Being careful doesn't mean you can't talk about things you don't know for certain, you just have to present them as such to avoid folks taking what you say and running with it.

As for this case mystery: how could we substantiate the (probable) theory? Well, the only way to be 100% certain is to have seen what happened yourself I suppose, but I'd be satisfied with finding old Apple documents, or hearing from someone who was there. The Lisa may also have undergone compliance testing at a lab like UL; if this was done, then these certifications are usually pretty specific to a single design, and they may not have covered amendments like the changes between these two metal frames. If that's the case, Apple would have been careful to test the product they intended to sell. Maybe this is a lead to follow?

Given that Sun Remarketing's fingerprints are on it, this was probably part of their gigantic inventory acquisition from Apple. They probably had several non-standard parts machines as Apple was eager to offload these things at the time.

Note that mst3k hypothesizes above that the SunRem tag actually fell out of a 2/10, not this machine. So what we have here may be a good example of a bit of supposing turning into a more elaborate narrative that isn't really grounded, and once that ball gets rolling it can take some effort to roll it back.

Can you say more about Apple being eager to offload prototype Lisa hardware to resellers like SunRem?

 

[ried]

Can you say more about Apple being eager to offload prototype Lisa hardware to resellers like SunRem?

I meant that Apple was eager to offload Lisa inventory generally - not eager to offload prototype hardware in particular (that would be truly remarkable). Sun Remarketing famously pieced together broken and incomplete machines from Apple by swapping parts to make and sell complete machines. The late Bob Cook's interview with The Verge and other outlets provide good primary source material on that.

You're right, though. If the Sun Remarketing label came from a Lisa 2/10, it reinforces the notion that the chassis in question (Apple asset tagged, non-standard chassis components) was a pre-production item used by an employee.

I guess we'll never know for sure