MacSurf — a real NetSurf-based browser for Mac OS 9 (CSS3, ES5 JS, native HTTPS)

[Jubadub]

I'm not misunderstanding anything. You're referring to a Discord discussion nobody here knows about, and I'm kindly asking you to keep things cool.

Yes, you are: I did not even know there was a Discord discussion until it was revealed just now, here on this thread, and not any earlier. I don't even use Discord in general (at least as far as the Garden's Discord goes). So how could I have been referring to it? Please read more carefully, especially considering your moderator position.

It sounds like you just skimmed through the posts. I believe we have already finished the whole discussion before your intervention, as well.

 

[defor]

Because I rarely look at things like this, I'll make a few points (because who doesnt want another cook in the kitchen right?):

1. @Jubadub and @ptricky, from what I'm seeing, it sounds like you guys are hashing out the misunderstanding that led to the earlier posts/reports, and I'm happy to see that!
2. @Jubadub, I don't mean to speak for Byrd here, but I think the comment was reasonable, as we don't want to encourage a practice of discussing things happening in other forums, as it can set a precedent we don't really want to promote on the mla.
3. @Jubadub I do agree with your sentiment, that the reason you posted this was because this thread is about the project, and strange things were happening elsewhere, but I (personally) think the better approach would have been to post a "Hey ptricky, what's happening with all your posts in the Garden disappearing, it's looking really strange, especially with all the odd commits" or something (I'm not gonna put words in your mouth), but perhaps doing something like that here instead of just screenshotting your concern posts over there into a thread here, would be better, and would have led to less of a banter back and forth on all this.
4. @ptricky this is a neat concept, to port a more modern lightweight browser to classic macos, and I can see a lot of utility to it, so congrats on the attention and support you've been getting, I do hope you can keep it parallel to the official NetSurf project as it evolves over time to address security changes and support new standards as well!

 

[defor]

My PERSONAL (not admin/mod) take on this project - yeah I've been slow to notice it because I'm buried in my own projects a lot (Sosumi.snd):

The modern web is complex. There's a lot going on out there, and there's always threats around every corner, so securing any project like this against bad actors is hard. Doubly so as this (your port, @ptricky, not Netsurf itself) is a casual project, not a project backed by a big team or company.

My point is the same as I have for using ANY vintage software/hardware for modern tasks, don't be silly and do things like banking on here!

Otherwise, pretty neat given how much Google has singlehandedly managed to make running http sites pretty much impossible if you want ANY SEO exposure.

 

[ptricky]

Either way I love all the passion, the community here, and working on my project. I did not handle it well and that is on me. I always need to do better and I made the mistake of being selfish and thinking the project only affected me when in reality others have stood up for me and put their own time into it. I appreciate the allowance for these kinds of human conversations and a chance to do better overall.

 

[Jubadub]

@defor More cooks are always welcome if their cooking is good!

To address your points:

1. Indeed;

2. I get that, but as I tried explaining to him, this truly was only about MacSurf from the beginning, because I wanted to alert of a sudden, seemingly-inexplicable project status change, including both binary and source code, and potentially what I perceived as a security concern; I was only sounding the alarm, since logins etc. were involved in testing the project. Without any info or context, it all seemed too suspicious;

3. That's pretty much what I did (but admittedly with more emotion), as the screenshots were only of text, and the banter is what allowed the matter to be clarified and ultimately resolved. (Otherwise it still wouldn't have been.) Not all conflict is bad, some difficult conversations are necessary so that we are able to sort out problems and misunderstandings like this one. Also, there is a big reason I chose screenshots over just, say, linking to that thread: it is because, at that time, I didn't know if my account got compromised, because if so, my posts could have been deleted, so the screenshot route was taken as a preventative measure to retaining the alarm.

Well, that's it in a nutshell. Nonetheless, I'm glad now we have all the info, and this was all sorted out. I hope MacSurf can resume progress eventually in a normal fashion like before.

MacSurf is definitely being currently very helpful at closing gaps left behind by WaMCom Mozilla 1.3.1 (and its successors like Classilla). I think no one expects to do reliable netbanking here, though, so no problems there. It definitely would be "the final step" only, if ever, and would require the most scrutiny before deemed fit for such a purpose.

 

[aladds]

So I've finally had a play with this on my G4. Genuinely quite impressed! It's about as fast as a browser can be on a Dual 450Mhz G4, and some sites (certainly Hackaday, macintosh garden) render near perfectly. I can see you've put in a lot of testing time.

Some comments:

• I'd love the scroll bar to be variable size. I know this was an 8.6+ thing so presumably that should be possible. USB Overdrive makes scrolling work well, though, so this is minor - it just looks a bit odd.
• I like the homepage, and whilst I can change the weather location.. it's still in Fahrenheit! This means nothing to me in Europe! Can you add an option for Celsius please, and perhaps a cookie to save the settings? (Also the clock doesn't update with the location)
• I couldn't download it from Classilla. I know this is a github issue though, so maybe an additional host somewhere of just the latest version on a page accessible over plain http would be possible? (Edit: I see in some other places you say it should be on the non-https macsurf.org but I can't get that to load in Classilla!)
• The window size seems to be forgotten on quit.

Otherwise, great project, good to see some new development going on in browsers!

 

[nathall]

I couldn't download it from Classilla. I know this is a github issue though, so maybe an additional host somewhere of just the latest version on a page accessible over plain http would be possible?

Side note, I’ve found you can’t do much of anything at all on github without using an ultra up-to-date browser which is.... annoying. Anything I’m interested in on github is for old hardware, so mandating I use an intermediary machine (or several, as the case may be) which may or may not have an easy transfer path to said hardware is irritating. I, too, wish people would offer a second hosting option.

Let’s be honest, “cyber security” is not a consideration or necessity for people trying to download a 37 kilobyte game or utility for a 1984 Macintosh (or a 1997 Macintosh). We’re downloading a f—-ing executable for a computer over 40 years old. Not accessing our financial portfolio.

 

[CC_333]

Let’s be honest, “cyber security” is not a consideration or necessity for people trying to download a 37 kilobyte game or utility for a 1984 Macintosh (or a 1997 Macintosh). We’re downloading a f—-ing executable for a computer over 40 years old. Not accessing our financial portfolio.

We all have Google to think for that.

Before they mandated HTTPS sometime around 7 years ago, most websites could still be accessed via plain HTTP, and thus on most old browsers. They wouldn't always render particularly well, if at all, but at least they were accessible.

I understand the need for good security when connecting to one's bank or some other highly important thing, but I'm with you: why on ******* earth do we need TLS 1.2 or 1.3 with the latest encryption ciphers just to log onto a web forum about old Macs, where the most personally-identifiable data is one's email address and username?

c

 

[gsteemso]

It’s not just about authenticating the users, it’s also about authenticating the content you are accessing... but, as you point out, very few people would go to the trouble of mounting a man-in-the-middle attack to spread disinformation about vintage computers. That’s what LLM AIs are for.

 

[CC_333]

but, as you point out, very few people would go to the trouble of mounting a man-in-the-middle attack to spread disinformation about vintage computers. That’s what LLM AIs are for.

Yes, agreed.

I can see the importance for banking and such, but for things like vintage Macs, it's frankly a waste of time to do anything other than minimal encryption, or none at all, which is how it was when these Macs were new.

While it would be novel to do banking and other highly security-sensitive things on a vintage Mac, I think it's better to let modern hardware fulfill that role, mainly because modern hardware is so much faster and can handle the extra overhead encryption incurs.

And LLM AIs are the worst. I would say that if they were human (ugly thought), they would be pathological liars. They cannot tell the truth, because they simply aren't capable of it.

There is some variability, of course. The big models (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini and Copilot, to name a few) are pretty good about getting facts relatively correct relatively often (none are perfect), but then take a smaller model, such as Grok for instance.

Grok has got to be one of the strangest and unapologetically twisted models out there. Not unlike the owner of the company that develops it....

c

 

[CC_333]

**New Post for Clarity**

Since this is a browser for classic Mac OS, and the developer has been open and transparent about the details of how it was made, I think it's best if we simply appreciate the effort for what it is and enjoy the fact that it actually works.

That said, are there any new updates?

c

 

[ptricky]

Updates! So while I was rushing out releases and trying to keep the momentum going at the beginning I have dialed back work a bit and have spent the past couple weeks working on what matters the most with the browser which is rendering websites the best it can and as fast as it can.

I did spin my wheels on a couple different aspects:

Building with Retro68

I spent a couple days digging into the possibility of switching from CodeWarrior to retro68 for builds. My thinking was it would speed up the development process, and most importantly, make the entry easier for others interested in contributing. While I haven't made it from point A to Z in terms of completely building the app with retro68 I have made some progress and it could be a real alternative in the future. The main issue I have found is the builds do better on OS 9 than they to 10.

Adding support for OS X

I'm also not sure how much this one is relevant or how many people use the earlier versions of X (~10.3) but I have been able to get it to run up to 10.3 on my imac. I do not have hardware that runs 10.4 so while I assume it works there as well I cannot confirm it. It didn't really cost me much, the main change I had to make was simply having the browser ask the system what OS version it is on. OS 9 is great in a way that sometimes it ignores issues that 10 cannot, causing it to not work on 10 vs 9, and in this case it was failing because it wasn't asking where it was and 10 didn't like that. The current confirmed on hardware supported versions at this point are 8.6-10.3.

Other projects

I've also been working on several other projects in between. Some browser related, some Linux related, so that has split my time. I've also been working on a book (I've written a couple over the years) and also trying to be better emotionally with all the chatter (mixed results) and simply enjoying the rest of the summer with the kids.