Zterm, serial transfers, file types, System Six, pain.

[Gorgonops]

My fancy new Mac Plus arrived in the mail recently, along with an HD 20SC with a clean installation of System 6. The only other software I have on it Zterm, and Stuffit 3.something. As I don't have anything at all that can read/write 800k floppies (and nothing handy with a SCSI port) I decided to try using a null modem cable to copy some stuff over, using the OS X version of Zterm as the software on the other end. After some fiddling (the USB serial dongle I was using has some problems with hardware handshaking, which made the transfer very slow because Zmodem had to keep resending blocks and wouldn't work at all at speeds over about 4800 baud) I succeeded in getting some files over, but that's pretty much where the success ends.

Every file I copy over, regardless of type (.sit, self-expanding .bins, whatever) gets created on the Plus side with what appears to be a generic "Document" file type/creator setting, which is pretty much useless. That breaks anything self-expanding, and though I was finally able to figure out how to make Stuffit look at the .sits I hit a brick wall *there* because it seems like every .sit out there in circulation needs a newer version of Expander. And I can't get that over to the Plus because of the file typing problem...

Anyone out there dealt with this before, or is there a link to a good howto? (Pretty much every attempt at googling how to do serial file transfers to an old Mac has hit pages that basically mention "you can do it", skip over the rest, and go on to describe how to write mac-readable 1.44MB floppies on a PC. Gee, thanks.) Would it make any difference if instead of using OS X Zterm I set up BasiliskII with access to a physical serial port and used Zterm inside there to copy the file? IE, in that case will Zterm correctly communicate the file type/creator codes when doing the transfer? Or is there some secret undocumented way to force System 6 to execute a file with the wrong file type?

I'm starting to think I may need to bite the bullet and slap together a PC with a SCSI card in it and copy stuff straight to the HD. (I hope the one card I know I still have still works.) Or maybe I could try using the same ancient version of Stuffit that's on the Plus to re-compress things for the transfer? Hrm.

 

[Mk.558]

Hrm, thought I talked about that...

If you don't have Hardware Handshake (HSK) then the speed will drop very noticably. I could pull up the E500 again and run a speed test of 57600bps with no HSK -- I bet it gets chopped to like 9600bps or worse.

1.) Is your cable wired the same way I have drawn the diagram?

2.) You don't need ZTerm on OS X to make it work. minicom and HyperTerminal work fine.

3.) For the .sit hassle, just use an emulator or a newer Mac with something like Stuffit Expander 14. Use the emulator to repack the contents into a CompactPro archive. (I'm a big fan of CompactPro. Too bad I can't register it.) Then use BinHex 4.0 to binhex it. Shuffle it over the network with ASCII encoding (not binary), then fire up Finder Info 1.1.1 and change the type to TEXT and the creator to BNHQ. Decode it, pass it through CompactPro and rejoice greatly.

4.) AFP bridge with Netatalk 2.1.6 under a Linux VM. Twice as fast as 115200bps, which you won't get on a Plus, I heard 19200 was about the most you could get (I used 38400 on the LCII, 57600 was the max and had too many errors).

5.) Use Pseudo-PPP dialup.

Pretty much every attempt at googling how to do serial file transfers to an old Mac has hit pages that basically mention "you can do it", skip over the rest, and go on to describe how to write mac-readable 1.44MB floppies on a PC. Gee, thanks.

That is why I wrote the Guide. I had the same issues you had and decided to chronicle the experience. Telnet isn't something I had bothered with since I was mainly interested in just how to shuffle the stuff around, no questions asked. But yes Telnet isn't something I wrote about and I didn't elaborate on it -- and yes, "rig up your cable, login with your telnet client and you're done" which makes me go "HUH?" as nobody even tells you basic telnet commands (like we were all born in 1960 and grew up speaking unix commands and telneted every day).

 

[uniserver]

i think what your missing is a "bridge mac"

You should buy my last complete G3 AIO from me.

ITs really the ultimate bridge mac.

Then set up a ftp on your OSX machine.

Transfer files to and from the Bridge Mac using transmit, love it.

Then just connect a Local Talk(or printer) cable from to plus to bridge mac.

At this point you will see much faster speeds then 4800, you will get speeds closer to 56000

i'll sell it to you for a very reasonable price + they are absolutely collectable now.

Also you can make all your floppies with the bridge mac too, 400k/800k/super

Just have DC 4.2 on there as well for the older floppy images.

The also the bridge mac will be on the net, so you can download all kinds of nifty stuff from nifty websites, then just slide it all over through

local talk to the plus.

and maybe we can keep our eyes pealed for a SCSI to Ethernet adaptor for you, ( for the plus ). they are slightly rare.

 

[uniserver]

lol doesn't mcdermd pack like a pro?

Then when you open the box everything is all wrapped up good.

might be fun to pretend it is new,

Ooo a HD 20SC - $1000.00

Ooo a PLUS - $2599.00

 

[bbraun]

Just a couple additions:

In zterm, under Settings -> General Preferences, you can set the type/creator codes zterm uses when creating the documents. Type SITD, Creator: SIT! is what stuffit uses.

If you need a localtalk/ethertalk printer bridge, I've got a spare Farallon EtherMac iPrint Adapter that unfortunately lacks a PSU.

 

[Gorgonops]

1.) Is your cable wired the same way I have drawn the diagram?

I think the problem lies in the somewhat skanky pile of adapters I cobbled together to go from the 25 pin end of the 8->25 pin apple cable I had to a nine pin PC serial port. (I tested the connections through with the multitester and pin 7->2 doesn't make it.) I may just cut the end off it and wire it up directly.

And yeah, speed *sucks* without hardware handshaking. The file does eventually make it but it hurts.

2.) You don't need ZTerm on OS X to make it work. minicom and HyperTerminal work fine.

I used it because it was there. The serial communications (other than the handshake) isn't really the problem. The reason I was wondering about using Zterm inside Basilisk as a possible solution is looking at the limited menu options there are for "what creator type to use for transferred files" inside the program there's a curious checkbox that says something like "Smart Macbinary", and I was wondering perhaps if you had the classic version talking to the classic version that "smart" setting did some magic to properly send the resource fork/type/creator information over when you did a transfer. (The OS X version has it as well, but resource forks have been officially broken on OS X as of 10.6 so maybe it doesn't work?) This link vaguely suggests that maybe it does?

3.) For the .sit hassle, just use an emulator or a newer Mac with something like Stuffit Expander 14. Use the emulator to repack the contents into a CompactPro archive. (I'm a big fan of CompactPro. Too bad I can't register it.) Then use BinHex 4.0 to binhex it. Shuffle it over the network with ASCII encoding (not binary), then fire up Finder Info 1.1.1 and change the type to TEXT and the creator to BNHQ. Decode it, pass it through CompactPro and rejoice greatly.

Since I officially despise Stuffit I'll definitely take a look at CompactPro, thank you. (Does it work okay without a key?) I still have the problem of getting CompactPro and the other tools onto the Plus. Classic chicken and the egg problem. :/

Wish I'd picked up one of those USB-SCSI adapters back when stores were practically giving them away.

4.) AFP bridge with Netatalk 2.1.6 under a Linux VM.

I would kill for an AFP bridge. (Also need a Localtalk dongle or other appropriate cabling for the Plus.) Well, "kill" is the wrong word; Asante's online store has supposedly has them new for $78, I'm not that desperate. But I definitely am keeping my eyes open for one.

5.) Use Pseudo-PPP dialup.

Another thing I've considered, but would have to get the MacPPP and the software bits onto the Plus first.

(Yet another thing that's high on my list to try is bbraun's serial disk driver. But I've got to get the INIT over...)

That is why I wrote the Guide. I had the same issues you had and decided to chronicle the experience.

And kudos, it is indeed full of useful information. I just seem to be stuck at a point where I have too few tools already on the Plus to process the files I get over serial. I guess my options (short of getting a bridge Mac) are probably:

0: Fix my stupid serial cable. (Non-negotiable prerequisite)

1: Try Zterm in BasiliskII and see if file typing works. (figure it's worth a shot. I have succeeded in getting Zterm+BasilikII to talk over a physical serial cable before under Linux in the past... I forget precisely *why* I did so, so it should be possible to try it.)

2: Suck it up and go the "wire up the SCSI disk to a PC" route to get some vital tools over, or

3: See if anyone nearby has a working beige box and could copy some files to a disk for me...

You should buy my last complete G3 AIO from me.ITs really the ultimate bridge mac.

Heh. Alas I think I have to pass on a Molar. (They're just too huge. I think these compact Macs have just about put me at the self-imposed "one closet's worth" limit on antique computer collecting.) I can't believe I'm saying this, but some really undesirable-yet-small doorstop like a Performa 6xx(x) series would be... about right. (I've been talking to CC_333 about possibly taking a beater Powerbook off his hands but there may be some kinks to that.)

lol doesn't mcdermd pack like a pro?

Heck, yeah. I think the stuff would have survived if he'd sent it via catapult.

I am afraid I'll have to be looking up how to do an analog board rejuvenation sooner than later. I've noticed the longer the Plus is on the *wider* the screen gets. (It starts off a bit off-center, and after being on for an hour or so the leftmost row of pixels are off the edge. There's also a bit of non-linearity on the left side.) I'm sure that's a symptom of some approaching doom.

In zterm, under Settings -> General Preferences, you can set the type/creator codes zterm uses when creating the documents. Type SITD, Creator: SIT! is what stuffit uses.

Aha! So you CAN hard-code something else. (I couldn't find it, guess I'm blind.) Is it possible to hard-set it to whatever it would take to expand a self-expanding executable? (I've read you can create ones that a Plus can expand with Stuffit 4.something?)

If you need a localtalk/ethertalk printer bridge, I've got a spare Farallon EtherMac iPrint Adapter that unfortunately lacks a PSU.

If it's just a wall wart I can probably roll with that...

Anyway, thanks everyone for the helpful responses. I have at least a few things to try. I'll also try to get my rear end over the Weirdstuff and see if I can find any bits (like a USB SCSI dongle) that could grease the wheels.

 

[bbraun]

Is it possible to hard-set it to whatever it would take to expand a self-expanding executable?

That gets a bit funky since self-expanding executables are applications, and have resource forks. So if the transfer is transparently taking care of resource forks for you, you could set the Type code to APPL for application, and the creator code doesn't really matter. Then just run it. But it's a bit sketchy as to whether your transfer software is preserving resource forks for you.