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Unknown card in PDS slot

trag

Well-known member
Actually, interesting point here: I don't see a crystal on that board, and the board was in a Q650. The PDS slot in that machine is going to be running at 33mhz.

Again, totally not going to rule out it being an '040 acellerator, but it's a very weird one if that's what it is.
I think the OP said this was in a Centris 650.  Didn't the Centris have a 25MHz bus?  The Quadras were pretty much identical to the Centrises but with a 20 to 25 MHz bump for the 610 and a 25 to 33 bump for the 650.

Yep, according to Everymac.com, the Centris 650 has a 25MHz bus/CPU and the Quadra 650 has a 33 MHz bus/CPU.   So this could be an early clock doubling CPU upgrade, but I agree with Gorgonops, it would be worth at least turning it over and counting the pins.  Also, check along the top edge of the heat sink.

The 68040 has its part number printed on the top edge and often, folks would attach the heat sink so as to leave that labeling visible.

As to whether a PDS CPU upgrade **needs** an extension/control panel or not, I had a conversation in which I was told that one of the early daughter board upgrades on the 128K/512K used some trick in bus arbitration to shut down the host CPU, but in that case, the upgrade has full access to all of the original CPU's pins.   So I could go either way.   Sure seems like the Turbo040 and such are active whether you load Daystar's software or not, but my memories are old and crumbly.

 
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toples50

Well-known member
The cpu has 179 pins so seems it is to be an 68040.But I haven't found any details on the internet yet.I even mailed Formac for details without any succeed answer...

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
I think the OP said this was in a Centris 650.  Didn't the Centris have a 25MHz bus?  The Quadras were pretty much identical to the Centrises but with a 20 to 25 MHz bump for the 610 and a 25 to 33 bump for the 650.
OP says Quadra 650 @ 33MHz

As to whether a PDS CPU upgrade **needs** an extension/control panel or not, I had a conversation in which I was told that one of the early daughter board upgrades on the 128K/512K used some trick in bus arbitration to shut down the host CPU, but in that case, the upgrade has full access to all of the original CPU's pins.   So I could go either way.   Sure seems like the Turbo040 and such are active whether you load Daystar's software or not, but my memories are old and crumbly.
Daystar's Universal PowerCache Install Manual says you've gotta install Power Central in the System Folder. Dunno, I've used several PDS Accelerators and Cache Cards from the 68000 on and all needed an INIT to shut down the native proc. to work. 2x CPU active on one I/O bus = BAD Juju, but this Card is definitely an odd duck.

ScanDump Box tearsheet search turned up bopkes. I've got various MW, MU & Byte Accelerator Review Articles from 91 - early 93, so nothing for the 650 and no products mentioned from Formac. No Formac listed in the Advertiser Directory of the May '94 PowerMac Intro, Macworld issue, nothing in the Star Ratings and I didn't see anything in the Mail Order House ads for accelerators.

If I find the intact Magazine collection, maybe something will turn up, but right now I got nuthin! :mellow:

edit: once again, ROM spelunking with TattleTech highly recommended. [;)] ]'>

 
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Compgeke

Well-known member
 
IAs to whether a PDS CPU upgrade **needs** an extension/control panel or not, I had a conversation in which I was told that one of the early daughter board upgrades on the 128K/512K used some trick in bus arbitration to shut down the host CPU, but in that case, the upgrade has full access to all of the original CPU's pins.   So I could go either way.   Sure seems like the Turbo040 and such are active whether you load Daystar's software or not, but my memories are old and crumbly.

Daystar's Universal PowerCache Install Manual says you've gotta install Power Central in the System Folder. Dunno, I've used several PDS Accelerators and Cache Cards from the 68000 on and all needed an INIT to shut down the native proc. to work. 2x CPU active on one I/O bus = BAD Juju, but this Card is definitely an odd duck.
On my SE Sytem Profiler detects the CPU part of the Hypercharger 020 PDS upgrade fine, no extension needed. If I were the op I'd try and find something that can detect the speed of the processor and run that, see if maybe the card does run extensionless. 

Failing that something which lists devices on the PDS would work.

 

TheWhiteFalcon

Well-known member
Or, load a heavy program while timing it, shut down, pull the card, reboot, load the same program and see if it takes longer?

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
The cpu has 179 pins so seems it is to be an 68040.But I haven't found any details on the internet yet.I even mailed Formac for details without any succeed answer...
So... maybe it is something like a QuadDoubler stuck in a PDS slot instead of the CPU socket, but that raises the other question again: are you *positive* your machine is a 33mhz Quadra 650 instead of a Centris 650? There is almost *no way* a 68040 is going to tolerate an overclock up to 66mhz (remember, even the "50mhz" ones used in the Quad Doubler were actually overclocked 40mhz marked chips) so if that is something like a PDS QuadDoubler it was almost certainly meant for machines like the Quadra 700/900, Centris 610/650, etc. If you run something like Speedometer 4.0 on your system does it correctly identify it as a Q650 and does it benchmark as expected? (Both with and without the card installed?)

(Now I wonder if it's possible, given this has a ROM chip on it unlike the QuadDoubler, if this card is trixy enough to detect if it's plugged into a compatible Mac and disables itself if not?)

 
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Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
On my SE Sytem Profiler detects the CPU part of the Hypercharger 020 PDS upgrade fine, no extension needed. If I were the op I'd try and find something that can detect the speed of the processor and run that, see if maybe the card does run extensionless. 

Failing that something which lists devices on the PDS would work.
Interesting, Tattletech tells both tales. ASP(?) or Tattletech would poll PDS devices and detect the Proc in your SE and the classification of the card, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the active processor does it? From your advice, I assume you've noticed the acceleration. ;)

 

toples50

Well-known member
So... maybe it is something like a QuadDoubler stuck in a PDS slot instead of the CPU socket, but that raises the other question again: are you *positive* your machine is a 33mhz Quadra 650 instead of a Centris 650? There is almost *no way* a 68040 is going to tolerate an overclock up to 66mhz (remember, even the "50mhz" ones used in the Quad Doubler were actually overclocked 40mhz marked chips) so if that is something like a PDS QuadDoubler it was almost certainly meant for machines like the Quadra 700/900, Centris 610/650, etc. If you run something like Speedometer 4.0 on your system does it correctly identify it as a Q650 and does it benchmark as expected? (Both with and without the card installed?)

(Now I wonder if it's possible, given this has a ROM chip on it unlike the QuadDoubler, if this card is trixy enough to detect if it's plugged into a compatible Mac and disables itself if not?)
The machine is a Quadra 650 for sure.(68040/33 and I've tested with several utilities like Speedometer,Apple Personal Diagnostics) The card it is very strange,thats for sure.We need a German guy who has old local Mac magazines.The card has a date on it. 7-3-1994

 

Ferrix97

Well-known member
Looking at the photos, it seems like the main ceramic chip is socketed, if so, can you pull it out? sometimes they write some details on the bottom as well

Also, it seems that the other socketed chips on the card are AMD Flash erasable PALs. what are they doing? why so many of them?

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
I meant physically, the slot is in a bad spot, I think it'd interfere with the case.
Yeah, that's a possibility; I was thinking they're *electrically* the same because things like DOS cards seem to be mostly shuffleable between them but mechanically they differ. (Like the Quadra 900/950 can take that absolutely huge WGS95 card that might not fit in any other model.)

 

trag

Well-known member
I'd like to reiterate my suggestion of checking the top edge of the chip which is not covered by the heat sink.  The chip label might be high enough that it's not covered by the heat sink.  It's hard to tell how much lap there is from the photo.

The name on the ROM, "proquadra 50" does seem to indicate a 50 MHz 68040 upgrade.   No one ever actually shipped a 68060 upgrade, right?

The Centris 650 was easily upgradable to a Quadra 650 equivalent by moving a few resistors....

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
The Centris 650 was easily upgradable to a Quadra 650 equivalent by moving a few resistors....
You can change what it identifies as, but don't you have to swap a crystal too? (IE, I know if you fiddle with the ID bits you can make the board identify as anything from a Centris 650 to a Quadra 800, but the speed is still dictated by the oscillator.)

 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Again: Download TattleTech and run the NuBus/PDS report to find out what you've got. No drivers or chip pulling necessary, it polls the onboard ROM, identifies the CPU a/o determines the class of the card: accelerator, NIC, Graphics card etc.

If you can't find that, download the (freeware) Gauge Utilities and run SlotInfo!

Way too much guessing going on here, no utilities have been employed per long established SOP this kind of thing: ::)

See: Peripherals: LINKS Project v2

 

Charlieman

Well-known member
Agree 100%, Trash. It's time for the OP to run some software probes/diagnostics.

Formac had a few mentions in UK Mac magazines in the 1990s but I don't have many. MacUser UK 6 Jan 1995 mentions an older accelerator for the LC family. It was the Formac Pro 50 (68030 50Mhz).

Formac had a straightforward naming convention. ProNitron = Trinitron monitor. ProDrive = SCSI HD. ProGraph = PDS graphics card. ProOpt = SCSI MO drive. ProVision = PCI graphics card. ProLegend = NuBus graphics card.

 

Elfen

Well-known member
I just have a question: How does the machine act with and without the accelerator?

I'm saying that because of my DayStar 040 in my IIci. When in the PDS slot, you turn on the machine and the little Smiling Mac Icon comes up with "Turbo 040" on its belly and the memory test only last a few seconds- LITERALLY! Without it, the Smiling Mac icon comes up as it normally does and the memory test (for 20megs of RAM) takes over 3 minutes!

I'm thinking along those lines - if the Formac is in the PDS Slot, it should activate without software, though there should be a control panel to control a few options like the 040 cache. (BTW: Apple's 040 Cache control panel does work on the DayStar 040.)

As to why one would want to put in a 50MHz 040 into a 33MHz 040, the answer if simple - for the work being done, faster is better. Things like multimedia (audio/video/images) are processed a lot faster on 50MHz than it is on 333MHz, enough to make or break a deal.

 

dafoomie

Member
Hell I'd be happy with a 50mhz overclock today on my Quadra 650 let alone back in 1994 when it was still relevant.

 
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