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Sonnet Crescendo L2 G3 upgrade model compatibility

Powerbase

Well-known member
Unless you have money to throw around, those g3s-on-pci that Sonnet made for the 7200s are ridiculously overpriced when they show up. Amiga people pay out even more than classic Mac people.
 

Franklinstein

Well-known member
Do those 7200 upgrades work in Amigas? I didn't know that.

I saw two of the G3 400 varieties show up once from the same seller. I bid $200 on the first one, even though it had a broken RAM slot, and still lost it last-minute to the only other bidder. So I went to bid on the next one, and the same person was also the high bidder here (it didn't show actual bidder account names, but it had the same psuedonym and feedback rating so I knew it was the same person). So I bid $200; outbid. Then $300; still instantly outbid. At this point I didn't even want it, I just wanted to see how much they were willing to pay for it and I was mad that they wouldn't let me have one (it was just the two of us in these Yahoo Japan auctions and I wouldn't have bid on the other if I had won the first, so we both would've gotten a deal). So I kept bidding. It got to over $600 before I gave up and I was never once the high bidder. Hope they enjoyed them. You're welcome, seller.
 

Coloruser

Well-known member
That's really neat :D Thanks for chiming in. It's not often we get a developer/engineer to add what they can on these kinds of topics. I know a lot of times NDAs etc. can prevent eve the more earnest ones, but I for one appreciate the comments!

I somehow never put 2 and 2 together until now that Metabox was a German company—makes sense now that I've seen a couple of mentions of clone licensees bundling JoeCards in Europe (I think Umax did this at some point to circumvent the language of the license agreement? but those were daughter card CPU replacements, not cleverly designed upgrades). Also, perhaps that's why I haven't seen them pop up here in the States or even so much as seen a photo beyond this horribly low-res one on EveryMac:
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Met@box (originally Pios) started primarily as computer developer. They had a clone sublicense from Motorola and developed a CHRP Mac Clone (Maxxtrem) that was also planned (sans the Mac Chipset) as a new Amiga (many of the guys behind pios were ex Amiga/Commodore guys from germany and the US). I also played with the Tatung clone those days and that was planned to be used as basis for other Pios computers. In parallel they also had a sublicense from Umax. They (we) had clones based on UMAX S900 boards (Magna) in a unique housing and Tanzania I based units in the standard housing (Keenya) with just a special front plate. In the beginning they used daughtercards from a variety of suppliers but then went on to do our own. First a 604r with up to 300 Mhz (but without inline cache like Apple‘s Mach 5) and later G3 and G4 (even with 2mb BS Cache). When the clone license was basically useless, the company only focussed on Upgrades and developed a set-top box as the new main goal (Was not involved in that at all). Next came ZIF upgrades for G3s and then - to suit the Tanzania base - the Joecard T. We never really focussed on Alchemy/Gazelle and as far as i remember never got it running in the Alchemy testbeds. We also had a US subsidiary for a year or so. In the very late 90s, Metabox only focussed on the Set-top-box business and the Mac business slowly dwindled down. No more new developments like Sawtooth etc. made it past the drawing board. Finally in 2001 - as the set-top business failed - the company went bankrupt.

Pios ONE (Amiga Version without Mac Chipset - see the blank spaces) and single CPU daughtercard. Even a CPU existed.
A2C5E753-7D18-4407-B1D3-158168618C33.jpeg
 

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Coloruser

Well-known member
Regarding the L2 cache slot CPU upgrades, I came across one of my postings in 1999 on the 6400 Zone page.

The g3 card for tanzania is trivia, you only have to route the ppc750 pinout to the cach dimm slot and do a little fine tuning. Tanzania uses a lot of the the alchemy design, but has some improvements. (like 2 chanel E-IDE, PS/2, faster onboard graphics etc.) Those improvements affect the DMA channels and the general way a cache is adressed. Even if tanzania and alchemy use the same memory controller PSX, the way the alchemy treats the cache dimm differs. So, if you want to turn a tanzania card (all manufacturers go that way - first tanzania - then alchemy) to be alchemy compatible, you have to change the whole way the card messages itself to the system. That’s why the cards had a little mor tech on them to let the 603 start and the initialize the CPU in the cache slot to take over. Without driver and firmware patch/NVRAM patch, the G3 could not take over. So, booting a Tanzania with G3 without driver still shows a G3 - but just the PPC740 part of it - means without backside cache. Booting an alchemy without driver therefore just uses the on-board 603. We never managed to get the JoeCard T to be adapted to Alchemy. I was only able to get it running well in a Typhoon (Alchemy derivative) aka Supermac C500/600 aka Umax Apus 2000/3000. We finally realized that we had to change a lot and the small market was already full with competing cards that did the trick on Alchemy. So we stopped it. I still have prototypes of all JoeCards that Thomas and I developed somewhere but just found a G4 one in original package in the attic. I suppose after 25 years, it is no longer in working condition 😜
 

jessenator

Well-known member
I still have prototypes of all JoeCards that Thomas and I developed somewhere but just found a G4 one in original package in the attic. I suppose after 25 years, it is no longer in working condition
This is very neat! If it's not too much trouble, it'd be really fascinating to at least see photos of them (if that's possible).

Too bad I don't live in the EU, otherwise I'd offer to test it or even send you a spare tanzania board ;)
 

Coloruser

Well-known member
This is very neat! If it's not too much trouble, it'd be really fascinating to at least see photos of them (if that's possible).

Too bad I don't live in the EU, otherwise I'd offer to test it or even send you a spare tanzania board ;)
Well, I left the USA after a three year tenure in Cupertino in 1994 😉
 

Coloruser

Well-known member
A G3/500 from 1998 in its original box sans the cooler/fan…….
 

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jessenator

Well-known member
Ditto! Thanks for sharing @Coloruser

Based on the photos, is it correct to assume the JoeCard T was more of a 'full height' and the littleJoe was a more compact design for the LPX-40/Tanzania machines?

The Interware/Vimage cards were also pretty tall, based on photos I've seen.
 

macuserman

Well-known member
The Interware/Vimage cards were also pretty tall, based on photos I've seen.
The ones I have and have all been very compact in fact I’d say smaller than the sonnet cards. But they may have had larger ones as well.
EA96BF98-0E63-4D2A-9811-DC4DF661F254.jpeg
You can see a 400mhz interware card here in my machine is not very tall at all.
 

jessenator

Well-known member
Like this one :)
1642972469612.jpeg

I might've mentioned earlier up the thread, but when I got my first Sonnet L2, the seller had one of these as well (albeit with a green heatsink) ha found it buried in my imgur (sorry for the capt. obvious overlay I put on it : P )
gYiREse.jpg
 

jessenator

Well-known member
I know the perspective is a tad off on the Sonnet, but I matched the scale of the connectors ;)

L2-Comparison-a.jpg


edit: this was something I was kind of concerned about at one point with fill-length PCI cards, especially the thicker ones like the PC Compatibility Cards with their heatsink in the 4400 specifically:
top
Tdsm6IF.jpg

middle
cmKEImb.jpg

The middle was just a bit too close (or touching) for my liking, but still sort of fit with the lower profile card.
 
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macuserman

Well-known member
I know the perspective is a tad off on the Sonnet, but I matched the scale of the connectors ;)

View attachment 37824


edit: this was something I was kind of concerned about at one point with fill-length PCI cards, especially the thicker ones like the PC Compatibility Cards with their heatsink in the 4400 specifically:
top
Tdsm6IF.jpg

middle
cmKEImb.jpg

The middle was just a bit too close (or touching) for my liking, but still sort of fit with the lower profile card.
Huh interesting I’ve never seen one that’s full height like that from interware I’ve owned 4 or 5 and they have all been low profile. I’ve got two in my possession right now in fact and they are both short.
 

Fizzbinn

Well-known member
Me neither, that wouldn’t fit in any/most of Apple’s machines right? I guess it looks like it would in the 4400 with no long PCI cards. Really meant for Tanzania clones?
 

jessenator

Well-known member
Really meant for Tanzania clones?
I'm guessing so. And yeah, no way that'd fit with 12" cards in there.

Coloruser mentioned the JoeCard L2 was developed for the LPX-40 (not moving to Alchemy & Gazelle).

Sonnet started with Alchemy and then moved on to LPX-40...interesting.

Not sure what Interware/Vimage started with, but I'd hazard a guess it was LPX-40 as well, since the Alchemy Macs were all slide-in and couldn't have a card taller than anything else in the "tray" (for lack of a better word). Who knows... wonder if there's an Interware developer on here, too :D
 

Coloruser

Well-known member
Ditto! Thanks for sharing @Coloruser

Based on the photos, is it correct to assume the JoeCard T was more of a 'full height' and the littleJoe was a more compact design for the LPX-40/Tanzania machines?

The Interware/Vimage cards were also pretty tall, based on photos I've seen.
JoeCard was always the version with 1mb Cache, LittleJoe the one with 512kb. There has been a JoeCard T and a LittleJoe T - both having the same form factor. Let me see if i can find the actual card‘s dimension as the cover shot on the box does make them all ( T, Ziff and regular Processor card) all look the same….
 

jessenator

Well-known member
Forgive the wonky perspective. (I'm still learning Affinity, migrating from Photoshop), but something like this? Found it on the box pic you uploaded. The pin pattern matches, so I'm assuming this is one of the 'T' cards :)
UeKseQM.jpg
 
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Coloruser

Well-known member
Forgive the wonky perspective. (I'm still learning Affinity, migrating from Photoshop), but something like this? Found it on the box pic you uploaded. The pin pattern matches, so I'm assuming this is one of the 'T' cards :)
UeKseQM.jpg
I think you got the dimension quite well. 👍

Indeed, that‘s the “T“ card
 

Coloruser

Well-known member
Here is an overview of the cards and the systems, they are designed for.
 

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Coloruser

Well-known member
Even if we could have made the "T" model running reliably on Alchemy/Gazelle (we already had the 40Mhz/50Mhz bus frequency switch enabled for Tanzania I and II), we had to completely redesign the card as it´s way to tall to fit into a 5400/5500/6400/6500 Housing. On the PM4400 and the Motorola Starmax, there was plenty of space below the drive cages - so we had no space constraints here.

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Funny side note: I totally forgot, that we had a G4 "T" model. That turned the old Tanzania (Morocco called by Motorola) into a speed daemon with handbrake on :cool:


1643049697171.jpeg
 
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