Solid State Drive for G3?

[Cory5412]

I was having some success with a SCSI2SD adapter, but started to have problems with files hanging when we try to open them.  We are having storage issues that I was not originally made aware of, so I need the ability to install a bigger drive.

One option for Beige G3s might be to look at the SCSI2SD v6. They are newer and much faster.

The other thing is for either of these, you want to run the fastest possible SD card you can get. It makes a difference and it should hopefully resolve the hanging or slowness you're having. If you're looking at SanDisk, you want at least an Extreme. They aren't much more and we've seen them making meaningful differences, along with making sure the scsi2sd v6 (in particular) formware is up to date.

On the storage issues front, are you looking at "not enough storage space" or something else? I almost wonder if getting an AppleShare server of some sort is really a better plan than loading all of your desktops with really big SD cards.

The unfortunate thing is that if you need lots of storage space, OS9-based server solutions start to be unfeasible rather quickly, because Mac OS 9 has a maximum volume limit of 2TB.

 

[Iamanamma]

If you're looking at SanDisk, you want at least an Extreme.

Hi Cory, the Cards I bought for the G3s are "Extreme Pro."  The problem with storage is definitely not enough space and I need to keep any changes as unnoticeable as possible.  

 

[Cory5412]

Ah, wow!

And that was on the G3 side? ANd if I remember correctly you had like a 500 gigabyte data volume?

I mentioned the idea of running an AppleShare server in the other thread, I'm doing so for more public use, and that should show up in chooser on an appletalk machine, but the bummer would absolutely be that the maximum disk size on Classic Mac OS is 2TB.

The next best way around is to run linux with old netatalk or Windows 2003, which can speak old appletalk, where you can tweak some NTFS settings to get more than 2TB volumes formatted so you can have everything on a single share.

You can put more than one volume in a machine but as far as I happen to know at the moment this doesn't include things like partitioning bigger disks (or else vtools would just be just a pair of 14TB disks partitioned up.)

 

[cheesestraws]

As a parenthesis, can I just say how interesting it is to have someone around who has hard requirements for their classic macs, rather than just wants like I have?  I have little to contribute at this point but I just wanted to say how good these threads are to read.  I will contribute if and when I can.

 

[Iamanamma]

Ah, wow!

And that was on the G3 side? ANd if I remember correctly you had like a 500 gigabyte data volume?

I mentioned the idea of running an AppleShare server in the other thread, I'm doing so for more public use, and that should show up in chooser on an appletalk machine, but the bummer would absolutely be that the maximum disk size on Classic Mac OS is 2TB.

The next best way around is to run linux with old netatalk or Windows 2003, which can speak old appletalk, where you can tweak some NTFS settings to get more than 2TB volumes formatted so you can have everything on a single share.

You can put more than one volume in a machine but as far as I happen to know at the moment this doesn't include things like partitioning bigger disks (or else vtools would just be just a pair of 14TB disks partitioned up.)

I think I misunderstood something you asked.  The SD card I purchased for the G3 is is 512 GB Extreme Pro.  The storage the G3 had was on the IDE bus, and was a 128 GB drive.  It's full, and from what I have been reading, I can't replace it with a bigger one.  I wanted to put everything on the SD card, but it just doesn't want to work right.  I cannot get the G3 to boot with both the old HD on the IDE Bus and the scsi2sd board installed at the same time.  The large partition I made for storage on the SD card keeps having issues as well.  I had to re-format it twice.  Seeing as I really don't want a gazillion small partitions to make this thing work, I am exploring other options.

I really don't want to start messing with Linux and Netatalk.  If it gets any more complicated for these guys than click the chooser, pick the programmer's computer, open it, find and drag the files to your own computer, I'll have a mutiny on my hands.

 

[Iamanamma]

ANd if I remember correctly you had like a 500 gigabyte data volume?

The sd card is 512GB.  I have it partitioned into a 2 GB partiton and a 500 GB partition.

 

[Iamanamma]

Works great in my Beige G3 tower, I did need to used a longer SATA cable then the one it came with but totally happy with it. ~40MBps with 64GB SSD I have, a bit less with a spinning disk. Both much faster then the even the Ultra SCSI “upgraded” disk my G3 came with. 

Hey Fizzbin, I just received my SATA PCI card and installed it.  ASP thinks it's a SCSI card.  Does your beige g3 think that as well?

 

[Fizzbinn]

Hey Fizzbin, I just received my SATA PCI card and installed it.  ASP thinks it's a SCSI card.  Does your beige g3 think that as well?

Yep!

 

[Iamanamma]

I just hooked up the SSD I could never get to work with the SATA to Pata adapter, and now the G3 sees it!  I was able to initialize and mount the SSD.  I wasn't expecting to see a 2nd SCSI bus appear, but hey, it works and I am not going to quibble the point.  I am going to price a bigger SSD  as the one I have is a little small.  Are you aware of any size limitations?

 

[Iamanamma]

I recently got one of these SATA PCI cards off eBay:

Hey FIzzbin, I am having some odd problems and I wondered if you had any input.  To quickly recap: I bought the same PCI card you did.  Installed, ASP sees as a SCSI card, this is normal.  Attached it to an SSD bought from OWC.  ASP sees it as a device on SCSI Bus 1.  So far so good.  Able to format SSD and mount.  Installed OS8.6 from original Apple G3 install disk.  This is where the problems start. I still have the SCSI2SD installed on SCSI bus 0, and when I tried to start up from the SSD I got the  error notification show below.  I shut down by pulling the plug (the "broken" OS only wanted to restart), took the SD card out of the SCSI2SD board and restarted.  I get the same error screen.  I tried restarting with the extensions off, no luck.  Same error screen.  I started up from the G3 CD and ran Disk First Aid, which told me there was an invalid header node, 4,0.  I reformatted the SSD.  Re-installed OS 8.6.  Ran Disk First Aid again.  Everything was reading good.  I tried to boot from the SSD again.  My error screen showed below was back.  Any idea what I am doing wrong?  Should I remove the SCSI2SD board as well?  

 

[Iamanamma]

I reproduced the error screen with extensions off, see attached.  I also Started from the CD again, and ran Disk First Aid.  Everything is reading normal, see attached.  My next step is to remove the SCSI2SD board.

 

[Iamanamma]

BTW, the most recent OS install was a clean install.

 

[Iamanamma]

Removing the SCSI2SD board does not solve the problem. I am still getting error type 11. I ran DFA again after the most recent failed boot, and I have a new message as shown:

 

[Cory5412]

I recommend trying this: if that OWC SSD is blank anyway, boot from your OS 8.6 CD, fire up disk utility or disk setup (I forget which that version will have) and re-partition to have a single partition a little smaller than the advertised capacity of your disk. (For example, if you have a 120-gig disk, maybe try using a 110 or 115 gigabyte partition.)

I've seen something like this happen in one other scenario and backing off on how much space used helped. I don't really know the technical details, but but it sounds like the SSD is playing capacity games, which might be why it's saying "Overlapped node allocation".

The other thing I recommend doing is using Mac OS Extended (or HFS+) filesystem. Standard should work, but most files will end up appearing larger than they really are due to the block allocation sizes, so if your data files are small (under a couple megabytes) you'll lose some space to the filesystem.

 

[Fizzbinn]

Any idea what I am doing wrong? 

Yikes, nothing obvious jumping out at me. Differences in my G3 setup is I’m using Mac OS 9.1, I’m pretty sure I formatted my SATA SSD with the version of a Drive Setup that came with that CD. I had nothing connected to the built-in internal/external SCSI bus but do have at Apple (ATTO oem) PCI Ultra wide SCSI adapter with a 9GB disk attached. I installed 9.1 on the SCSI drive first, I’m pretty sure I just copied the drive contents to the SSD instead of doing another install, but wouldn’t think that should mater.

I’m traveling for the holidays but can see if it can reproduce when I get back next week...

 

[Iamanamma]

The other thing I recommend doing is using Mac OS Extended (or HFS+) filesystem. Standard should work, but most files will end up appearing larger than they really are due to the block allocation sizes, so if your data files are small (under a couple megabytes) you'll lose some space to the filesystem.

Thanks Cory.  I am checking for bad blocks right now.  I figured it couldn't hurt.  The SSD is blank, so I will gladly try your suggestion.  I used MAC OS Standard formatting because this G3 is destined to make files for the IIsis to use to run the turret presses.  I wasn't sure if the differences between OS 7.1 on Standard and OS 8.6 on Extended would cause problems for me.  I have seen the block allocation issue you mentioned.  Tiny little files ended up looking to be 3 times their size when restored from a backup on a G4 running OS 9.

 

[Fizzbinn]

Thanks Cory.  I am checking for bad blocks right now.  I figured it couldn't hurt.  The SSD is blank, so I will gladly try your suggestion.  I used MAC OS Standard formatting because this G3 is destined to make files for the IIsis to use to run the turret presses.  I wasn't sure if the differences between OS 7.1 on Standard and OS 8.6 on Extended would cause problems for me.  I have seen the block allocation issue you mentioned.  Tiny little files ended up looking to be 3 times their size when restored from a backup on a G4 running OS 9.

Mine is formatted Extended. If you’re copying files between your IIsis and the G3 via AppleTalk over a network I wouldn’t think the the G3 being formatted Extended should matter.

 

[Iamanamma]

Re-initialized the drive again.  Set to Mac OS Extended.  One partition, 110 GB used out of 120 GB available.  Installed OS 8.6.  Restarted. 

 

[Iamanamma]

I don't understand why it tells me to restart with the extensions off, when all that is on this drive at this time is OS 8.6, but I did.

 

[Fizzbinn]

Which version of Drive Setup are you using? Can you try later versions?  I think my SSD is 64GB (or 32GB), maybe try a smaller single partition size?

The Extenstions Off thing is probably a fairly generic error message. Found this on Type 11 errors:

https://udcf.gla.ac.uk/~gwm1h/Error_Codes/Type_11_Errors.html