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SE/30 with Micron Xceed Grayscale & Socketed Daystar Acceler

phreakout

Well-known member
Okay, my mistake. I had thought RP3 was in between the internal and external SCSI ports, but I have been corrected. That's what you get when you don't have the complete entire schematic of the logic board. I am trying to trace out an entire dead board and then transfer my findings into a home made schematic. When I have it complete (or for that matter, complete individual sections), I'll see about posting them for everyone's reference.

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

 

JDW

Well-known member
I think you'll find my comprehensive set of SE/30 schematics much more to your liking:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B3mQLg8d1xThNzQxMTA5ZGQtNmNlMy00MWUwLTg3YWMtMmE3MTc3ZjQxZTYz

They are hosted on my GoogleDocs account. Just click the File menu (in the browser window) and choose "Download Original." That will download the ZIP file to your hard drive and you can then see all the schematics.

That archive contains all the Apple schematics, but also non-Apple schematics. This is nice because it allows you to compare the two when troubleshooting.

Furthermore, I have combined all split-sheets, making it MUCH easier to read the schematics on-screen or when printing to large sheets of paper like A3. I have also cleaned some of the schematics. So even if you find the "originals" of these same schematics online, you'll find mine are better because I've improved them (as good as they will get, considering the shoddy scanning of the Apple schematics).

 

Brooklyn

Well-known member
Hello, at the request of the original poster, I have some pics of my Xceed card and CRT adapter. I am pretty sure it is a "Color 30". Sorry the pictures are not better, the only camera I have is my iphone. Also, what does the pot on the CRT adapter do?

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9967/img0133ib.jpg

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6022/img0135hz.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2299/img0136jj.jpg

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7470/img0137c.jpg

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9320/img0138va.jpg

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/395/img0139pr.jpg

 

tt

Well-known member
Interesting, it looks like you have a homemade grayscale adapter like the one Gamba used to make.

 

JDW

Well-known member
For the PowerCache, the first thing I would try is to swap out the CPU and FPU with the ones on the Diimo.
Oh my. Well, folks, it's been a heck of a long time, but I finally was able to make time to sit down and following this excellent and very logical advice. I previously had removed the CPU from the socketed Daystar PowerCache card (the one that affixes directly into the CPU socket of the SE/30 logic board), and I put that CPU directly into the SE/30 logic board. I had no problems booting the SE/30 via that CPU, so I assumed all to be well with it. However, today I took tt's words to heart, said "what the heck," and put the DiiMOs CPU into the Daystar board. I was pleasantly shocked and surprised to see it boot right away! I've been running MacBench 4 on it for the past hour, and so far all is well. I now need to test it with my Ethernet PDS MacCon card and also the Xceed. (Note that I left the FPU untouched, and it would not appear to be the source of my previous problem.)

Thank you, tt, for inspiring me to do the right thing!

But I must say it is strange. The CPU in the socketed Daystar PowerCache board has a number "50" in the part number on the chip itself (MC68030RC50B), which means it was originally tested for that speed. And despite the DiiMO board being clocked at 50MHz (like the Daystar PowerCache), the DiiMO's CPU has a "40" in it (MC68030RC40B), which means it was only certified to run at 40MHz. Even so, it would appear that something happened over time to the CPU in the Daystar board. Yet, the Daystar board's CPU still works at the stick SE/30 logic board clock of 16MHz, and there are no lockups at all when I use it in the SE/30. But I cannot boot off the Daystar PowerCache if that CPU is used in the PowerCache. But my question is WHY? Anyone care to guess?

Thanks.

 

tt

Well-known member
Nice! Now you can see if you can find a 50MHz version for it at a decent cost.

My guess is the CPU went out of spec at 50MHz because it got cooked in there over time (inducing defects in the semiconductor materials), but it still works at lower frequencies. If you have a thermocouple, you could monitor the CPU case temp to see how hot it gets under the chassis when everything is assembled.

 

JDW

Well-known member
I ran the 40MHz rated 68030 CPU from my DiiMO in the Daystar card for well over an hour, pounding on it hard with MacBench 4 the entire time. I then yanked the board and put my finger on the CPU. It was almost too hot to keep my finger on it, but not so hot I feel like my finger had been burned. I therefore must assume the temperature to be around 65 degrees C or so.

But will a CPU spec'd at 50MHz run cooler (without a heatsink) than a part certified at 40MHz? Or is it rather that they will heat up exactly the same, but the 40MHz part either won't work at all or is more likely to fail when run at 50MHz?

I've found some CPUs sold on EBAY, both the 40 and 50 versions. There also appear to be 3 revisions of the CPU: A, B and C. Both the CPU in my DiiMO and the CPU in my Daystar PowerCache were "B" revision parts. But the question at this point is, can any of the A or B or C revisions be used? I would think the "C" revision should definitely be able to be used, since it is the newest revision. But since I don't know the specifics of what those revisions mean, I'm leery about putting anything other than what was originally in there in the first place.

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts.

 

zuiko21

Well-known member
I can't tell for every single CPU model made, but generally speaking, and within a certain manufacturing process, heat dissipation depends on the actual clock input, no matter what the certified speed is. The latter parameter defines the propagation delays, which in turn increase with temperature, thus it makes some sense to build the fastest CPUs with revised technology in order to reduce power consumption (and thus heat) for a certain speed -- in other words, get the same temperature at higher speeds.

Not sure about the 68030, but some revisions of the 68040 (HRC) do dissipate less heat at the same speed, waiving the use of a heatsink @ 25 MHz.

Actual performance will vary from sample to sample... for instance, I have a Q840AV mobo without CPU, and tried it with three 68040's -- none of them rated 40 MHz :(

1) The XC68040RC25B from my old, trusty Quadra 700: does chime and the desktop pattern appears. I didn't want to fry this one (was my only '040 at the time) so I shut it down immediately without any further testing.

2) One MC68040RC33 does nothing -- no chimes, no video > :( But it works perfect on the Quadra 700 @ 25 MHz.

3) Another 33 MHz piece (same mask than 2) does chime and gets all the way to the blinking question mark floppy. But when it heats up (all three samples do get really warm }:) ) and the propagation delays increase, it's no longer able to chime or show video... but if I turn it off and let it cool down, it can chime again -- somehow expected behaviour.

Back to your original question, I believe a later revision could reduce heat dissipation or fix bugs, but they all should be 100% compatible -- as long as you keep it cool enough. Just downloaded the 68030's datasheet (3rd edition) and has no mention at all about revisions... but it says that the 50 MHz part specs are guaranteed up to 80ºC case temperature only, which confirms what I was taught in College ;)

 

geedubya

New member
FYI: I've got this exact configuration -- SE/30 with greyscale, socketed 50 MHz Daystar, fully loaded with 128MB RAM AND a solid-state HD -- listed on eBay now. No reserve. Ends Jan 23. See my post in the Trading Post forum for more info, link, & pix.

 

JDW

Well-known member
heat dissipation depends on the actual clock input, no matter what the certified speed is... The XC68040RC25B from my old, trusty Quadra 700: does chime and the desktop pattern appears. I didn't want to fry this one (was my only '040 at the time) so I shut it down immediately without any further testing.
I'm having trouble harmonizing your two statements above. You first say the heat dissipation depends on the clock speed alone, and then you said you didn't want to fry your 25MHz rated CPU when clocked at 40MHz. But why did you worry about that? Or was it that you merely didn't have the 25 heatsinked?

geedubya, for the sake of saving everyone the trouble of needlessly jumping to another forum only to pick up your EBAY link, here it is:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320831343359#ht_21309wt_1413

An interesting setup you have. It's almost exactly what I have, including the RAM. Your video card is different than mine though. Compare:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/SE30MicronXceedGrayscaleVideoWithDaystarSnapOnAccelerator#5620905452158378386

Sure wish I could figure out how to solve the vertical line problem on my card. But I refuse to pay $160 to replace all those sinking memory chips to do it!

 

JDW

Well-known member
geedubya, although I can see your motivation for posting here is merely to SELL, my interest in viewing your system is for educational purposes and for the furthering of knowledge in our vintage Mac community. I am now eyeing that SSD you have (Model: S35CF68-900CNN1). I have looked for one of those in the market FOR YEARS (at a reasonable price) unsuccessfully since those are the only true SCSI SSDs available (which means you don't have to mess around with adapters). However, you say it has an SATA to SCSI adapter in your auction listing. But your photo of the label on the drive itself indicates otherwise:

http://homepage.mac.com/gbarrow/SE30-greyscale/images//ssd-label.jpg

You mention that the drive is a 1GB Adtron, which made the industrial-use SCSI drives (no adapter required) shown here:

http://www.psism.com/Smart-SSD.htm

Therefore, it seems that your statement about an SATA-to-SCSI adapter would be in error simply because those ADTRON drives were true SCSI drives that needed to adapter for use on a SCSI bus.

I'm also curious about how that SSD benchmarks too. But if you've not already done that yourself, I would likely need to speak to whomever wins your system about that.

 

candoit

Member
Can someone identify exactly what this is, I see online that some have what look like rectangular crystals in the lower left corner by the white connector and some don't. What's the difference? The one shown here has them:

13zahr9.jpg.81aa3178bfb4dbc008c7b9ed67223d45.jpg


I cross threaded on this site, sorry. Was looking at another page I had started and inadvertently posted on this one. End result is the same, I guess.

 

Brooklyn

Well-known member
There are several revisions of the Color 30 board. Some have different components than the others.

 

JDW

Well-known member
Say, that gives me an idea! The Micron Xceed supports some sort of "virtual desktop" thing, right? Enable that and try dragging the desktop around. It would be interesting to see if the line moves. Whether it does or not would depend on how the output buffer is used.)
Someone commented under my YouTube video today which reminded me of your old post. My video shows the vertical line problem on my Micron Xceed video card inside my SE/30:


I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

 

uniserver

Well-known member
looks like i do see something when you are in black and white.

unless they are just compression artifacts.

[attachment=1]Screen Shot 2014-01-12 at 7.13.15 AM.png[/attachment]

[attachment=0]Screen Shot 2014-01-12 at 7.13.33 AM.png[/attachment]

do you just have this video card installed right into the PDS slot?

if not. try with just the video card installed in a bone stock config SE/30

also while you are doing that… start up the se/30 with the rear off.

and try to bend / flex the video card in 16 shades mode.

just to see if it goes away if so then you might get an idea of whats going on.

it could also be a hunk of dust or debris that is in-between 2 legs of one of the I/C's on the video board.

any chips that are removable, i would pop them out and then back in… could be a loose or poor connection, after there is some years on this hardware.

and maybe try a hair dryer, see if some heat does anything to change the line.

 

JDW

Well-known member
Thank you for your reply, uniserver. I will reply point-by-point below.

looks like i do see something when you are in black and white.unless they are just compression artifacts.
The little white dot that you're showing in your screen capture is indeed related to the Xceed video card. It is not a compression artifact.

do you just have this video card installed right into the PDS slot?
Yes, the Xceed video card is plugged directly into the SE/30's PDS slot.

start up the se/30 with the rear off.
I've done that many times, both with that back housing removed and with it installed. Such as zero effect on the vertical line problem.

and try to bend / flex the video card in 16 shades mode.just to see if it goes away if so then you might get an idea of whats going on.
Easier said than done. Even with the card removed and sitting in my hands, the card is not so easy to flex. Here's a photo of the video card:

FRONT

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1eQ05JFdke8/TgF3ulf04ZI/AAAAAAAABrc/6VIR8Xr3TSk/s0-Ut/P1030198.JPG

BACK

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Civph6YvxAg/TgF3oD95b2I/AAAAAAAACCo/SR2n49QOlzw/s0-Ut/P1030199.JPG

it could also be a hunk of dust or debris that is in-between 2 legs of one of the I/C's on the video board.
If you look very closely and zoom in at the front and backside photos of my video card, a "hunk of dust" is not likely. I certainly can't see anything like that. It's a very clean card.

any chips that are removable, i would pop them out and then back in… could be a loose or poor connection, after there is some years on this hardware.
As you can see from my front side photo, there is one chip that is socketed, but it's stuck in there very tightly and I'm not really sure what the best procedure is to even remove it. But thinking about it logically, with that particular chip cause the vertical line problem?

and maybe try a hair dryer, see if some heat does anything to change the line.
I answered Trag on that, earlier on in this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=157029#p157029

For further info, photos, and video, please have a look through the previous pages in this thread. And note that although I do talk about three different problems in this thread, you can still glean a wealth of information about the vertical line problem when reading through my previous posts here.

All said, the most likely problem is that one of the VRAM chips is bad (one of the 16 chips shown in the upper left hand corner of my "front" photo). But as I've been repeating throughout this thread, I would like to find a way to nail it down to one specific chip, rather than being forced to replace all the chips blindly, seeing there are greater risks, time and expense in replacing all 16.

Many thanks to everyone who have kindly contributed to this discussion thus far.

 

uniserver

Well-known member
you could take the floppy / hd assembly out boot it from an external.

then you could have room to flex it.

have your Tried an air duster upside down… for cold to see if that does anything … with the floppy drive/hd assm out you could use that per vram chip to find out what one might be causing the issue.

if the line goes away after a squirt on that specific chip.

lastly how far are you from fukushima, is your how many counts per minutes are you getting?

( not saying radiation is your issue of corse ) you've had your issue before that i reckon.

you could take your multimeter and ohm out, document each chip from ground to leg by leg to see if there is an odd duckling there.

anything else you would need an oscilloscope to find your odd duck ram chip.

 

JDW

Well-known member
you could take the floppy / hd assembly out boot it from an external.then you could have room to flex it.
I flexed it (within reason) using rubber gloves while powered on and with the vertical line showing. No affect whatsoever during flexing.

have your Tried an air duster upside down… for cold to see if that does anything … with the floppy drive/hd assm out you could use that per vram chip to find out what one might be causing the issue. if the line goes away after a squirt on that specific chip.
I don't currently have an air duster. But it is freezing cold here in Japan, and having left my Mac off last night, it's of course very cold this morning. So I cold-booted it and then used a hair drying on the video card (both sides). No affect whatsoever.

lastly how far are you from fukushima, is your how many counts per minutes are you getting?( not saying radiation is your issue of corse ) you've had your issue before that i reckon.
I'm more than 260 miles south of Fukushima, and no, the wind from Fukushima doesn't blow in this direction either. (It blows toward California.)

you could take your multimeter and ohm out, document each chip from ground to leg by leg to see if there is an odd duckling there.
I attempted that, but man, it is NO SMALL TASK! The problem is we are dealing with surface mount chips here, not DIPs with thick legs. As such, even the least little hand jerk could cause the DMM's probe to slip in between two pins, shorting them together. Even if I could reach all the chips with my DMM probes (which is not possible even with both drives removed), the probability of destroying the board do to human error (probe slipping) is so high that this wise piece of advice becomes impractical. Even if I had the means of using some special adapter to completely pull the video card outside the SE/30's chassis (which I do not), there is still a high probability of shorting as I just described.

I did remove the card and used by DMM to do a continuity check on all the green hand-soldered wires that you saw in my Front side photo. No problems there.

anything else you would need an oscilloscope to find your odd duck ram chip.
I have access to a CRT type scope (20MHz) at the office, along side a 100MHz digital storage scope. Using the scopes is a non-issue, but the question is: WHAT TO LOOK FOR?

But when using a scope probe though, there is also the possibility of accidental shorting (albeit less likely due to the thinness of a scope probe's tip versus a DMM.)

So you can better see what I am seeing...

I just uploaded some hi-rez photos to my Flickr account, showing the Micron Xceed card mounted inside the SE/30 from various angles:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=xceed&m=tags&ss=0&ct=0&mt=all&w=66071596%40N00&adv=1

 
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