SE/30 with Micron Xceed Grayscale & Socketed Daystar Acceler

[Gorgonops]

That's why the bad line appears to move, and why certain refreshes will cause the copied image to go away, but the bad image always manifests in the original place.

To clarify, the "pixels" I spoke of in my previous post were not the vertical line pixels. I was speaking of the stray color pixels that you can see in the following screen shot...

When I asked the question I was wondering about the vertical line pixels. So they are *not* picked up or moved by a cut and paste?

Those pixels and the "stray dots" might be two mostly-unrelated problems, although it's possible the same RAM chip could be causing both of them if it has some sort of problem that affects both the DRAM and SRAM portions.

 

[JDW]

I was wondering about the vertical line pixels. So they are *not* picked up or moved by a cut and paste?

The continuous vertical line pixels (the white dotted pixels shown at left in the following screen shot) do not move when I cut/paste or move the window (unlike the stray colored pixels shown at right in that same screen shot):

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B3mQLg8d1xThM2MzNmQ5YTctZDdiMi00NTk4LWI3ZjUtNTU3M2JmNjg2ZTU2&hl=en_US

That remains true whether I am using Canvas 3.5 (which messes around with the grays/color palette) or when I am in another app or in the Finder. And as I said in previous posts on this topic, the visibility of that continuous vertical line of pixels depends on (a) the grays/color mode you are in (e.g., 4 grays, 16 grays, 256 grays, etc.) and ( B) the color/gray-shade of the background behind those pixels (for example, the dotted line of pixels at left in my screen shot are white, so if the background is white you cannot see the pixels over the white background until you bring a black or dark object into that area of the screen).

 

[tt]

JDW, are you able to run the internal monitor at 640x480 in 256 shades? How does it look?

 

[JDW]

JDW, are you able to run the internal monitor at 640x480 in 256 shades? How does it look?

The internal CRT of the SE/30 is not capable of running at 640x480, nor does the Xceed video card allow changing of resolution. However, I can change between GRAYS or COLORS (even though I cannot display COLORS on the internal CRT), and then I can choose shades of those, such as 4 grays, 16 grays, 256 grays, etc.

 

[tt]

Thanks, I saw some references to a 640x480 SE/30 hack, and it threw me off. How is your super SE/30 running?

 

[JDW]

Thanks, I saw some references to a 640x480 SE/30 hack, and it threw me off. How is your super SE/30 running?

In which combination of parts? :

I still haven't gotten the socketed Daystar accelerator to work, nor have I resurrected the socketed logic board -- both topics discussed earlier in this thread.

And I've still not fixed that vertical line problem on the Xceed (also mentioned earlier in this thread). I wish I knew enough on how to narrow that problem down to a specific chip or chips, so I could replace just those chips at a reasonable cost. But at $10 a pop, plus shipping, I don't want to replace all 16 chips on the card.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Sorry if the following doesn't make much sense, I just read thru the entire thread in one sitting and my head hurts!

I'm glad you used photoshop to identify the exact pixels. That's why I skimmed/read the thread sections that weren't way over my pay grade.

I was about to suggest examination of your screen shots in GraphicConverter. It'd be very easy to build a one pixel "staircase" with every ten pixel grouping dropped or raised and with every group of ten pixels dropped or raised. A subsequent screenshot of the "staircase" test pattern would easily identify any movement of the line and counting any changes of the "dashes" might be enlightening. Dunno, the ole' noggin's spinnin'-n-hurtin', as I said.

I use the "staircase" method to roughly determine the pixel height of the Menu Bar for any given oddball resolution in the process of wallpaper creation.

Silly questions:

Are the soldered CPUs and motherboards the same as the socketed CPUs and motherboards? :?:

If the same, has anyone removed the '030 and installed a socket?

If the boards are entirely different revs and the soldered CPUs are BGA instead of PGA, do the pads match the PGA layout?

I'm thinking in terms of a socket conversion hack in either case. }

 

[JDW]

Are the soldered CPUs and motherboards the same as the socketed CPUs and motherboards? :?: If the same, has anyone removed the '030 and installed a socket?

If the boards are entirely different revs and the soldered CPUs are BGA instead of PGA, do the pads match the PGA layout?

I'm thinking in terms of a socket conversion hack in either case. }

The PCB layout isn't exactly the same even among soldered-CPU logic boards. And there are slightly different components used among different board revisions. But all the boards are "functionally" the same. Between the socketed CPU logic boards and soldered CPU versions, the only "major" difference that I can visually see (other than the CPU socket) is the location of capacitor C12. You can see this difference in the following photos:

Socketed CPU board (TOP):




Socketed CPU board (BOTTOM):




Soldered CPU board (TOP):




Soldered CPU board (BOTTOM):




And here is a different Socketed CPU board with CPU removed (click the tiny magnifying glass icon to zoom in further):

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/SE30MicronXceedGrayscaleVideoWithDaystarSnapOnAccelerator#5642529984101043730

But if you read through this thread, you will see that the socketed CPU board I tested the Daystar socketed accelerator in is a good board. Using the stock CPU, with or without a PDS accelerator attached, that socketed board performs flawlessly. That implies something must be wrong with the Daystar board. I just wanted to test the Daystar board in a DIFFERENT socketed CPU motherboard to be 100% sure. But since I cannot get my other socketed CPU board to work, even after a recap, I cannot test that. But if the Daystar board is bad, what could have killed it? Nothing is visually burned, nor have I been able to find any info online about manufacturing defects in that series of accelerators. And since those accelerators are so rare (and I mean R-A-R-E in the truest sense of the word), I really want to resurrect it if possible.

Now as to the vertical line problem on the Xceed video card. The pixel data I provided earlier in this thread is accurate. I just am not savvy enough to know which chip or chips on the Xceed video card is bad (and therefore causing that vertical line). I know that if I swap out all 16 chips on the video card (and if I do the job correctly), the problem would be solved. But I don't want to pay $160 + shipping for 16 of those chips! Plus my time in removing all the stock chips and soldering in the new ones! I am enthusiastic about doing one or two chips, but not all 16!

 

[bigmessowires]

JDW, here is the socketed SE/30 motherboard I mentioned a while ago. If you want it, it's yours for the cost of shipping. I believe it needs to be recapped. It was working fine until a couple of months ago, when the SCSI stopped working. I don't see any visible damage or leakage on the motherboard.

 

[JDW]

Thank you for the kind offer. I would also need to consider buying another round of capacitors from Trag, as I used all of them for my last recap (which sadly was not successful, as I have reported earlier in this thread). But before I proceed with this, I have a couple questions.

But I am curious, have you never seen any vertical lines or other on-screen pixel artifacts that are signs of SimasiMac? If not, it is quite curious to hear that only the SCSI on the board could have died. Had such been a result of leaked caps, I would also expect to see some signs of SimasiMac.

Also, what device did you have connected to your motherboard's SCSI port? And are you sure it is not a case of bad termination or a problem with your SCSI device?

 

[bigmessowires]

There were no vertical lines or other screen artifacts that I saw, no. Other symptoms were that the sound from the internal speaker was very faint, and ADB mouse and keyboard occasionally stopped working. The only attached SCSI device was the internal 40MB hard drive. After the SCSI failed, I also tested an external SCSI Zip drive without success. The 40MB internal drive was later transplanted to another computer and still works fine, so I think it must be a problem with the SE/30 SCSI. After the SCSI failure, the SE/30 would still boot and run OK from a floppy.

I no longer have the rest of the SE/30 this came from, so I can't boot it again for further tests, but if there's anything else you'd like me to check on the logic board or send a photo of, I'm happy to do so.

 

[JDW]

In another thread phreakout wrote the following:

The symptom of a bad SCSI controller chip is when turning on the power of the SE/30, the monitor shows the bright rasters and an arrow pointer appears on the left upper corner. But the monitor doesn't show a smile Mac and the SE/30 doesn't start up. At this point, you'd just have to replace the chip.

Since it appears that you never had a problem booting, or with bright rasters, or with an arrow stuck in the upper left corner of your screen, I must assume the SCSI controller to still be good. Hence, the SCSI may have simply stopped working for the same reason your audio is bad -- the caps have leaked. But of course, it could also mean that a trace has been eaten through. And I honestly believe that to be the case for my other socketted logic board, which I recapped but sadly still doesn't work (won't boot at all).

When you have time (and please don't feel rushed), it would be appreciated if you could give me an estimate on how large the box would be for you to ship it, as well as the weight (which will vary by the box and packing you use). Since I am located in Japan, it may cost me a bundle to get the board over here, and my worry is that after I buy additional caps from Trag, even after I recap the board, will it function properly? If there is no eaten traces, and if the SCSI is down only due to insufficient capacitance and/or leaked fluid causing minor electrical anamolies, then the board could be repair. I then cannot say if it would get my DayStar board to work (since the Daystar board doesn't work in another of my good socketted boards). But testing is the only way to know.

 

[phreakout]

I agree as well. Low audio is one symptom due to simasimac, so replacing the capacitors on the top side (C1 through C13) will help fix that problem. Regarding the ADB loss, it could be a cap or one of the fuses located near that side of the board; maybe even the ADB controller chip or, if it applies, a Bourns network filter. Regarding the SCSI chip, my suggestions are following what is listed on the "Repair Mac" page. But first, I would replace the caps, since they are the primary cause for most problems on the SE/30. Afterwards, if no success getting SCSI to work, you can then work on getting the chip replaced. Don't be surprised if you have to replace the Bourns network filter (RP3?) that sits inbetween the internal and external SCSI ports on the top side. I happened to read on an older post someone mentioned that if you remove the network filter, it disables the external port; the same applies also to the external floppy drive port.

I am currently trying to get one replaced on an SE/30 for another member on this forum, but this will be the ONLY one I'll work on. I just don't have the proper tool to do this better (hot air rework solder/desolder workstation) and those cost upwards of $400 dollars for a good one. Once I get enough money for one, I'll be glad to do this for anyone. Right now, I'm just relying on a few pencil soldering irons to get the job done. *Knocks on wood*

One tip, though. If you happen to replace a chip (or network filter) on the top side, make sure you add a chip socket between the board and the replacement part. This will make replacing the part again much more easier; you don't have to keep desolder/resoldering the old part out every time. One of my pet peeves with Apple. Why couldn't they just bite the cost and add sockets for ALL chips and the like is beyond me. > :?:

73s de Phreakout. :rambo:

 

[JDW]

Regarding the ADB loss, it could be a cap or one of the fuses located near that side of the board; maybe even the ADB controller chip or, if it applies, a Bourns network filter.

In the past I found my keyboard would lose connection with my SE/30 (and my mouse too because my mouse was connected to my keyboard), and I long thought it was the motherboard inside the SE/30. However, after thinking about it logically, reflecting upon how the SE/30 motherboards so often need their caps replaced, it finally made sense to me to open up my ADB keyboard (which happened to be a IIgs keyboard). And what do you know! I found leaked electrolytic caps inside my keyboard! So I desoldered them, cleaned the area with Dehydrated Ethanol, soldered in tantalum replacements, plugged everything back in, powered on the machine, and all was well! So it could be that the caps in the keyboard need replacing. And if the mouse was connected directly to the Mac, which knows, it could be that something in the mouse was bad. One cannot always say that the motherboard inside the SE/30 is to blame.

Don't be surprised if you have to replace the Bourns network filter (RP3?) that sits in between the internal and external SCSI ports on the top side. I happened to read on an older post someone mentioned that if you remove the network filter, it disables the external port; the same applies also to the external floppy drive port.

But he said his "INTERNAL" 40MB SCSI drive didn't work while connected internally to the SE/30, but that the same drive did work when he put it in another computer. So if the Bourns network filter affects the EXTERNAL SCSI, I assume it would not affect the internal SCSI. This seems to make logical sense as you often filter I/O outside your black box (because you never know what will flow in from outside), but you don't always filter the inside of your black box the same way (because you designed it and know what noise or signals or voltage spikes will appear within it). So it very well could be that the caps alone are the cause of the bad internal SCSI.

But going back to my reason for wanted to test another "known-good" socketed SE/30 logic board in the first place, I simply want to see if a good board would get my rare Daystar socketed accelerator board to function.

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/SE30MicronXceedGrayscaleVideoWithDaystarSnapOnAccelerator#5641720071352856226

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/SE30MicronXceedGrayscaleVideoWithDaystarSnapOnAccelerator#5641720098640690242

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/SE30MicronXceedGrayscaleVideoWithDaystarSnapOnAccelerator#5641720000463421602

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/SE30MicronXceedGrayscaleVideoWithDaystarSnapOnAccelerator#5641719875621289650

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/SE30MicronXceedGrayscaleVideoWithDaystarSnapOnAccelerator#5641719891108002018

However, logically speaking, since my existing socketed SE/30 motherboard works fine in the stock condition, and works fine when I use a DiiMO PDS accelerator card in it, I must assume it is in 100% perfect condition and therefore even if I try another socketed SE/30 motherboard with my Daystar card, the Daystar card probably would not work in that motherboard either. In which case I am left wondering the same thing as I was before: what specifically could be wrong with the socketed Daystar card?!

If the Daystar card were not so rare (I mean, really, how many of us here have even seen one of these outside the one I have?), I wouldn't care so much about it. But because if its rarity, I would like to get it to work. But when I put it in my socketed logic board (and yes I am inserting it correctly), the machine won't boot (as I have described in detail earlier in this thread).

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[tt]

I was thinking that it is sort of odd that you have two cards from the same machine that are acting slightly strange. Maybe they were both subjected to some sort of scenario that lead to higher stress, such as excessive heat over time or some kind of ESD-like event. Has anyone had an Xceed card go bad on them or DayStar '030 accelerator? I haven't really heard of many issues.

 

[JDW]

Both the Xceed card and the socketed Daystar accelerator are too rare to know much about. Few people have them, and sadly the ones out there who do own them refuse to talk about their machines! And when comparing the Xceed card to the socketed Daystar card, the Daystar card is far more rare. Indeed, I've never seen a single one appear on EBAY in my many years of searching EBAY! And when I purchased this SE/30, it was from a Craig's List seller who didn't advertise that his Mac had the Daystar card in it. I was totally shocked to find it in there. I simply bought it for the rare Xceed card, not knowing it also had the ultra rare Daystar card.

Keep in mind this is not your normal "PDS" style Daystar card. This card is very rare because it is the socketed type that, apparently, Daystar made very few of (probably because so few SE/30's had a socketed CPU and it was a lot of work to put a socket in).

Now you may be right about something having harmed the Xceed and possibly killed the Daystar. But I would like to troubleshoot the Daystar card to see if it can be resurrected. I just don't know where to start.

 

[tt]

I'm aware it's the socketed version, but it appears to be very similar in design to the Universal PowerCache, and those seem to have been pretty common. Maybe the design under the chassis is not so great thermally and could lead to early failure compared to the common version. It kind of reminds me of the clip-on boards for the 128k/512k that people gripe about around the forums.

The Xceed adapter is sort of rare, but in it's time maybe not so much? I have an Xceed and Universal PowerCache, not that I have used them as much as I'd like since I have been holding out for my ultimate system like you have been able to gather, but from the use I have had, I have not noticed anything unusual. For the PowerCache, the first thing I would try is to swap out the CPU and FPU with the ones on the Diimo.

 

[JDW]

I pulled the CPU from the socketed Daystar board and put it into my socketed SE/30 motherboard. The motherboard booted just fine, proving that that chip is good. I couldn't do the same with the FPU because that chip is not socketed on the motherboard. If we assume a bad FPU would prevent booting, then I would need to confirm if my DiiMO board has a socketed FPU or soldered.

 

[tt]

Yours is socketed since we have the same Diimo. Another simple component to replace would be the xtal(s). Check caps and resistors. Other than that, it gets dicey.

 

[zuiko21]

Just a few ideas... a couple of days ago we were talking about SCSI problems:

Since it appears that you never had a problem booting, or with bright rasters, or with an arrow stuck in the upper left corner of your screen, I must assume the SCSI controller to still be good

I think the aforementioned symptoms would arise if the SCSI chip was bad in the part that interfaces with the 68030 etc. But it could go wrong in many ways. Still not sure if it's the culprit, but my first, just recapped but SCSI-less SE/30 never did that -- just showed the floppy icon with blinking '?'. The funny part is that some abnormally terminated SCSI chains do show something on utilities like SCSI Probe... for instance, the drive model with some altered characters. Specifically, the bit 2 stuck high!

That made me think about the 53C80 being bad on the disk interface side -- maybe the internal line drivers and/or sense amplifiers are toast. Anyway, I was given here the sensible advice of checking all traces and connections to the chip, just in case... I haven't had the time and/or guts to do it, but I made this drawing in order to ease the task (it's attached for your convenience)

Don't be surprised if you have to replace the Bourns network filter (RP3?) that sits inbetween the internal and external SCSI ports on the top side. I happened to read on an older post someone mentioned that if you remove the network filter, it disables the external port; the same applies also to the external floppy drive port.

However... according to my SE/30 schematics, there is no Bourns network filter between internal and external SCSI ports! Both ports are directly connected to the 53C80. RP10 is however between the internal and external floppy ports. RP2 and RP3 manage, respectively, both serial ports.