SE/30 infinite boot loop or rattling floppy drive(?)

[lma114]

Hi,

While going through the attic of my parents in law, I found two Macintosh computers, one SE/30 and one LC475. The latter one didn't want to show anything on the display at first, but after replacing the battery on the motherboard it is now up and running. The SE/30 looked more promising at first, but I haven't been able to get it to start up fully so far, which is how I found this community. I searched the forum and read some interesting posts about the SE/30, but none really covering what I'm dealing with (although I suspect that may be two different things).

When powering on the SE/30, there is a short bing/chime after which the display turns 'white' and the mouse pointer appears. A little while later a floppy disk appears with a flashing question mark in it. From what I've read in other posts, these are all positive signs, so so far so good. The startup disks of the SE/30 were missing, so I created some new ones for both OS 6.0.8 (disk 1) and OS 7.0.1 (disk Install 1 and disk Disk Tools). Inserting one of the OS 7 disks makes that the floppy disk image on the screen changes into a happy Macintosh face. However, after that one of the following two things happen: either 1) the white screen with mouse pointer appears again and the whole cycle starts again, or 2) there comes a rattling noise from the inside of the machine (see attached video) which sounds like it is coming from the floppy drive and after this a floppy disk with a cross in it appears on the screen.

I am a bit unsure what could cause these issues. I believe this SE/30 has a hard drive in it, because it has a little orange light a bit above where to insert the floppy disks, so I am wondering if the hard disk could be faulty, given that the machine does not start up without a floppy disk and does not continue with a floppy disk either. And then I am also suspecting that the floppy drive is faulty and/or dirty/stuck, causing the rattling noise. Unfortunately I do not have the proper screw driver to open the machine, so I cannot check/clean it, but will try and buy that screw driver next week (as I understand from other posts that I need to check/replace the battery for this one too).

Any thoughts on what could be wrong are very welcome, as well as other tips/hints of how to best get this machine up and running again

 

[imactheknife]

Well, good so far as no battery exploding in the lc475. Will have to crack open the se/30 to see how the battery is, but if it’s turning on thats a very good sign but would open up asap and remove the battery if there is one. The floppy drive icon means no bootable drive. The x means that the floppy or boot is not compatible with that machine, but more than likely the floppy is dirty if no floppy is in the drive. Nice finds

Yeah, floppy sounds stuck. Will have to remove once inside se/30 and clean. Be careful once you remove the back. You will have to remove logic board and the power connector on those can be a real pain. I broke the tube on the crt once trying to take it off.

 

[lma114]

Thanks for the response! Sounds like opening it up to inspect, change battery and clean the floppy drive should be my next task then.

 

[ymk]

Check your 5V rail.

 

[dochilli]

You should recap the Logic board (LB). The caps leak and may damage the LB. And remove the battery.
The analog board and the power supply could also need a recap.
The voltages are ok so far as the computer tries to boot. But you can check them at the floppy port. Should be 5 and 12 Volt.
For cleaning the floppy disk drive you can find videos at youtube.

 

[lma114]

Today I bought the right Torx screw driver to open the machine, replaced the battery and took out and cleaned the floppy drive. Some good news and some bad news:

The rattling noise indeed came from the floppy drive, and specifically from the moving of the head (see attached video). First I cleaned the floppy drive as shown in the video linked in the previous post, which made the disk go in and out more smoothly. I also oiled the eject gears which made those come back to life. What solved the rattling noise was to clean the ‘rail’ along which the head moves as well as the worm drive screw that moves it. The Mac would previously recognize a floppy but would then fail to properly read them. After cleaning it is now starting up completely from the floppy disk!

I did notice some things though when inside the machine:
1. The logic board looks relatively clean (see image), but on some of the capacitors there is some white oxidation(?). How do you think it looks like? I suppose recapping it is the best way forward in any case. Any recommendations in/near Norway?
2. There is a gold coloured wire (see image) that looks snapped. It seems related to the CRT, or at least the red wire next to it is coming from that. What is the purpose of this gold wire? And, does it matter that it looks snapped? I guess so…, but the CRT seems to work fine.
3. The (40MB) hard disk is not being recognized, although the light comes on. I took out the (250MB) drive of the LC475 and that works in the SE/30, so that confirms that the issue is with the drive itself. I found this video on how to open and clean it, as the heads may be stuck, so will give that a try. Unfortunately I haven’t managed to loosen the final screw (which is surrounded by a hex nut) under the warranty void sticker.

Anyway, so far so good. Pretty happy that I managed to get it started

 

[Phipli]

What solved the rattling noise was to clean the ‘rail’ along which the head moves as well as the worm drive screw that moves it

Don't forget to put some new grease on it. Either white lithium, or just a small amount of regular lithium grease.

I suppose recapping it is the best way forward in any case. Any recommendations in/near Norway?

Recapping is mandatory with SE/30s, it is causing damage at this moment, and the longer you leave it the worse it gets. Using it accelerates the problems. Have you got any soldering experience? With care you can likely do it yourself, removing the old caps is the tricky bit. Much to my shock and as horrible as it feels, the "twist" method is the most reliable way of not causing damage.

There is a gold coloured wire (see image) that looks snapped. It seems related to the CRT, or at least the red wire next to it is coming from that. What is the purpose of this gold wire? And, does it matter that it looks snapped? I guess so…, but the CRT seems to work fine.

It looks like a retaining clip I think. That is the flyback. If it works, I'd suggest leaving it, but be careful with the machine. Try to avoid jolts. More than even normal for a CRT machine!

I found this video on how to open and clean it, as the heads may be stuck, so will give that a try

Don't! Opening a disk is something you do when you don't care at all. First try rotating it abruptly about the spindle's axis of rotation using your wrist. Perhaps give it a bit of a jolt. Shake it about a bit... not what you'd normally do, but given it is broken, it is something to try. I have brought multiple disks back to life like this. Also, if you can see a bearing, a dab of sewing machine oil can help.

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

Hey, could you post some photos of each angle of the label on that battery? I've never seen that brand before.

 

[Phipli]

There is a gold coloured wire (see image) that looks snapped. It seems related to the CRT, or at least the red wire next to it is coming from that. What is the purpose of this gold wire? And, does it matter that it looks snapped? I guess so…, but the CRT seems to work fine.

Well, I had an SE in bits so went and looked, mine is broken too, and I hadn't noticed :

 

[lma114]

Have you got any soldering experience?

Some soldering experience, but no equipment for it at home and not sure if I’d trust my skills for this kind of job.

It looks like a retaining clip I think. That is the flyback. If it works, I'd suggest leaving it, but be careful with the machine. Try to avoid jolts. More than even normal for a CRT machine!

Good that it’s most likely only a retaining clip. I’ll be extra careful then.

First try rotating it abruptly about the spindle's axis of rotation using your wrist. Perhaps give it a bit of a jolt. Shake it about a bit... not what you'd normally do, but given it is broken, it is something to try. I have brought multiple disks back to life like this.

I tried this and it actually started spinning a few times (but not each time). When spinning, the Mac recognized the name of the disk a few times in the HD SC tool, but wasn’t able to run the test on it (error message as attached). Later on it didn’t see the disk anymore when spinning either. So not looking too good. I could still try open it and take a look, or just buy another one. I read that an SD based ‘SCSI drive’ could be an option too.

Hey, could you post some photos of each angle of the label on that battery? I've never seen that brand before.

Sure, see attached. No brand on it actually.

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

Very strange… do you mind if I use those images on the batteries page on my website?

 

[lma114]

Very strange… do you mind if I use those images on the batteries page on my website?

Sure, please go ahead

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

Thanks! I’ll be sure to credit you.

 

[Berenod]

Very strange… do you mind if I use those images on the batteries page on my website?

I'm pretty sure I just liberated an SE/30 of one of those black, sort of no brand batteries...

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

I’ve heard of the “brand less black battery” before but always assumed people were somehow missing the brand on the VARTA batteries found in the early SE and Mac II systems, proven wrong now.

 

[dochilli]

A SD card can be used as a scsi drive for example with:
- SCSI2SD
- MACSD
- BlueSCSI
- ZuluSCSI
- RaSCSI, now PiSCSI

Or you build your own TashTwenty (emulates a HD20 at the floppy port).

TashTwenty: Single-Chip DCD (Hard Disk 20) Interface

Somebody stop me. Introducing... TashTwenty! Elevator Pitch It's a DCD (the interface used by the Hard Disk 20 to plug in through the disk port) interface, contained entirely within a PIC16F1825 (14 pins, ~$1.70) microcontroller. It bit-bangs the low-level IWM protocol using the read/write...

68kmla.org

 

[lma114]

A SD card can be used as a scsi drive for example with:
- SCSI2SD
- MACSD
- BlueSCSI
- ZuluSCSI
- RaSCSI, now PiSCSI

Or you build your own TashTwenty (emulates a HD20 at the floppy port).

TashTwenty: Single-Chip DCD (Hard Disk 20) Interface

Somebody stop me. Introducing... TashTwenty! Elevator Pitch It's a DCD (the interface used by the Hard Disk 20 to plug in through the disk port) interface, contained entirely within a PIC16F1825 (14 pins, ~$1.70) microcontroller. It bit-bangs the low-level IWM protocol using the read/write...

68kmla.org

I read a bit about the various options and understand there are varied opinions about which to choose. I see that some (the newer ones?) are even using a Raspberry Pi. Are there any obvious pros/cons between these various options?

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

SCSI2SD - Out of production, can't get them due to the chip shortage
MacSD - Expensive but can emulate CD Audio which others can't (?)
ZuluSCSI - Successor to SCSI2SD, good as a general purpose drive replacement
BlueSCSI - Same idea as ZuluSCSI. Their old V1 hardware came before Zulu, and was cheap, though with some hardware flaws. The V2 version (current) is much better but it appears they've pretty much copied ZuluSCSI's homework without giving proper credit, so I'm hesitant to support them.
PiSCSI - EXCELLENT solution as an external file transfer device. Hardware is based on BlueSCSI V1 but it better designed, and uses the Pi as the brains. Pis are expensive now, but the reason this thing is so good is that it uses a web interface to handle easy disk image swapping. It's extremely convenient, but not best suited for internal use.

 

[lma114]

Today I decided to open up the hard drive (a Quantum Pro 40MB). Until now, sometimes it would spin up, and a few times it was recognized as a SCSI drive, but in those cases disk test failed due to not being able to write to it. The machine wouldn’t boot from the drive either. Often the drive wouldn’t spin up at all.

So, I decided I did not have much to lose and opened up the drive. Inside the drive I luckily didn’t see any sticky black stuff keeping the heads from moving as reported by some others. The head seemed to move relatively easy when I moved it. But after reconnecting the drive it still wouldn’t spin up.

I then loosened the board underneath the (outside of the) drive. It’s that board to which the SCSI and power cables are connected. Unfortunately there were some connections running from the board into the drive, so I couldn’t actually remove it. So I screwed it back on again. Then I connected the disk again and to my surprise the disk started to spin! The Mac recognized it again, but still wouldn’t boot from it and disk test also still failed.

With a spinning disk I could now at least try some more things. I noticed that although the black rubbers on the inside of the drive were still intact, maybe the head of the drive was slightly sticking to it. I tried to move the heads a bit and that seemed to confirm that some minor stick was happening. After moving the heads a bit, the Mac now suddenly booted from the disk!!

Frustratingly, the drive was not really acting consistently though. Sometimes it would not spin up and when it did the Mac was not always booting from it.

I suspected the sticking may have to do with it, so I put a small piece of tape over the black rubber to which the head was sticking so that it would no longer be sticky. That seemed to make the booting consistent when the drive spun up!

But the disk would still not always spin up. It seemed like there was something fishy with the power or SCSI connection within the board/disk. I suspect the three thin long black components next to the SCSI connector (see image), because they have some wiggle. I tried to move them a bit, but wasn’t able to consistently find out in which position they would make the disk (not) spin up. And at some point the disk was dead again and wouldn’t spin up anymore at all Moving the black things didn’t seem to help, so I did what made the drive spin up the first time: unscrew the board below the disk and screw it back on again. And then things started to work again…

After this the disk has been working consistently and I have placed it back in the Mac again. I still have some suspicion that the thin long black things from the picture are involved, but haven’t really been able to make consistent evidence for it. Anyway, so far so good and now I can play Tetris

 

[bakkus]

BlueSCSI - Same idea as ZuluSCSI. Their old V1 hardware came before Zulu, and was cheap, though with some hardware flaws. The V2 version (current) is much better but it appears they've pretty much copied ZuluSCSI's homework without giving proper credit, so I'm hesitant to support them.

From the official website at https://bluescsi.com/v2:

BlueSCSI v2 is based on the Raspberry Pi Pico microcontroller and a fork of ZuluSCSI's SCSI2SD code

+

Like before we're building on the shoulders of those who came before us - namely this code base is based on the ZuluSCSI's SCSI2SD.

Which credit do you feel is missing?