scsi voodoo on a quadra 700 with an 80 pin hd

[micheledipaola]

hello everybody,

I am in this very strange situation:

my Quadra 700 came with an hard disk which failed after a few weeks. I wanted to try an 80 pin hd (cheaper, easier to find) with this made-in-china adapter: https://it.aliexpress.com/item/4001112495209.html and I got my hands on a 17GB Seagate Cheetah ST318406LC (the label says it's LVD/SE).

Connecting it and turning the Mac on got me chimes of death and sad mac errors 00000F / 0000003 or 000000A, with any possible combination of scsi id  (now the HD is on ID 4).

I could boot the Quadra with an external (v5.5 boxed) scsi2sd and low-level format the disk to HFS with FWB Tool Kit, then install MacOS 8.1 - the disk is there, I can see it, it reads and writes perfectly, if I use system picker to pick the 8.1 HD system folder and then reboot, it will boot into 8.1 with no problems, but... if I unplug the scsi2sd and just turn the Mac on, I get the no-disk icon. 

How is this possible? what setting or action am I missing?

Any hint or advise is warmly welcome! 

Thanks in advance!

 

[Daniël]

Sounds like you aren't using an inline terminator? These boards provide no termination at all, you either need to solder resistors or a resistor pack to the data line pins on the adapter, or use an inline 50 pin SCSI terminator. The SCSI2SD is terminating the bus when it is attached, which is why it makes sense that the drive stops being found when it is disconnected. The lack of termination might upset the Quadra enough to get the Sad Mac.

 

[MrFahrenheit]

I have a lot of experience with those 80pin conversion boards.  I ordered several different types from different sellers before I got one that works.

The one you picture won't work on the Mac.  The adapter board itself does not have any termination, and drives don't either.  Even adding a terminator in the line after the hard drive (using a 3 slot cable) won't work.

I have bought many from this company, and their adapter board works:

https://www.datastoragecables.com/scsi/internaladapters/sca80/SM-028.html

 

[micheledipaola]

I have a lot of experience with those 80pin conversion boards.  I ordered several different types from different sellers before I got one that works.

The one you picture won't work on the Mac.  The adapter board itself does not have any termination, and drives don't either.  Even adding a terminator in the line after the hard drive (using a 3 slot cable) won't work.

I have bought many from this company, and their adapter board works:

https://www.datastoragecables.com/scsi/internaladapters/sca80/SM-028.html

Thanks,

I would profit of your experience to ask you: is it normal that the disk is seen and accessible anyway, if I boot from another device, and will warm-boot if I use system picker on it, while it will not cold-boot when the Mac is turned on? Shouldn't the lack of a termination affect it in any situation and not only with cold-boot? 

Just trying to learn something more out of this situation

I will anyway try with the one you are linking, or maybe I will look for one in Europe (I am in Italy) that might ship faster.

 

[MrFahrenheit]

Thanks,

I would profit of your experience to ask you: is it normal that the disk is seen and accessible anyway, if I boot from another device, and will warm-boot if I use system picker on it, while it will not cold-boot when the Mac is turned on? Shouldn't the lack of a termination affect it in any situation and not only with cold-boot? 

Just trying to learn something more out of this situation

I will anyway try with the one you are linking, or maybe I will look for one in Europe (I am in Italy) that might ship faster.

Well that’s certainly interesting. I have a box full of different adapters that I tried that wouldn’t work and yours is one of them. 
 

If you look at the link I sent you can see 3 termination resisters on the board. Look at your board - no terminators. 
 

Additionally there’s something called hi and low termination. I do believe the 3 terminators cover both. 
 

As to why it would work except cold boot, that I can’t tell you. Strange. 
 

Have you tried turning on the machine and after it’s warmed up pressing the reset key combo on the keyboard ?

Has your Mac been recapped ?

Also, be careful buying one from another supplier. I’ve bought many that implied “active termination “ but had no termination. 

 

[Daniël]

Has your Mac been recapped ?

The Mac in question is a Quadra 700, which has tantalums. They can fail, but they tend to just short out entirely.

 

[MrFahrenheit]

The Mac in question is a Quadra 700, which has tantalums. They can fail, but they tend to just short out entirely.

Do you know if anyone has recapped it before you?  I recapped a Q610 with different caps than normal, and they had a higher resistance rating on them. This prevented SCSI from working. I recapped it with the ones I normally use and it worked after. 

 

[micheledipaola]

Do you know if anyone has recapped it before you?  I recapped a Q610 with different caps than normal, and they had a higher resistance rating on them. This prevented SCSI from working. I recapped it with the ones I normally use and it worked after. 

No previous recapping as far as I know. SCSI works anyway, bus shows no error or strange behavior on many scsi utilities, scsi2sd works perfectly and also the internal scsi drive works - only IF scsi2sd is connected too. Anyway I will give a shot to the active termination adapters and see if it solves the problem. Just have to wait for them to reach me from US...

 

[micheledipaola]

...aaaaaaand it worked!!! 

thanks @MrFahrenheit !

I spent an insane amount of money to have the adapter delivered fast from the US to Italy, and another amount for customs clearance, but it is now here in the Quadra 700 and the scsi hard disk booted from cold and correctly loaded the system! Hooray!

Luckily enough, I ordered two adapters, so now I can use the second to add an extra HD to the DuoDockII for my PowerBook Duo 280!

 

 

[cheesestraws]

Very nice!  Enjoy your Quadra 700, they're nice machines.

 

[MrFahrenheit]

...aaaaaaand it worked!!! 

thanks @MrFahrenheit !

I spent an insane amount of money to have the adapter delivered fast from the US to Italy, and another amount for customs clearance, but it is now here in the Quadra 700 and the scsi hard disk booted from cold and correctly loaded the system! Hooray!

Luckily enough, I ordered two adapters, so now I can use the second to add an extra HD to the DuoDockII for my PowerBook Duo 280!

 

I’m glad it works and my research has paid off for you. 
 

I have had the discussion several times with people who say their adapter should work anyways. My experience says otherwise. 
 

Enjoy!!

 

[Daniël]

I’m glad it works and my research has paid off for you. 
 

I have had the discussion several times with people who say their adapter should work anyways. My experience says otherwise. 
 

Enjoy!!

There are still situations where the cheap, non-terminated adapters can be a good option, still. If you're installing it into a Mac with multiple SCSI devices, for example a CD-ROM drive, you can just terminate that instead. As long as you don't have one of the super fussy drives, it'll work fine. Even if the terminated device is connected inbetween the SCA drive and the logic board. That's the current test rig I have set up with my Performa 600, which works nicely. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in other Macs with the ability for multiple SCSI drives, like the Quadra 800, 840AV, 950, or the PowerMac 6100/7100/8100, etc. It's currently running an Ultra160 Fujitsu that allows for Narrow Mode to be jumpered, and I hope to find more drives to test, to eventually compile into a list somewhere on the site, but it seems cheap SCA drives have dried up around here.

I would agree a terminating adapter is a must for single internal SCSI device Macs like the Quadra 700, but the sad fact is that there don't seem to be many sellers out there for these, and the linked one is insanely expensive to ship to Europe. There is however, the ability to terminate such an adapter by hand, for those crafty enough, which would be a good chunk of change saved: 

 

[micheledipaola]

don't know if my soldering skills could make it, but good hint anyway.

and yes, getting that adapter to Italy cost me 100€+ for fedex fast shipping (fast indeed, less than a week) plus 35€+ for customs clearing so... I could have probably bought another 50 pins scsi disk with that money. Anyway, I am glad I could solve this. Now I have a nice Quadra 700 to play with

 

[MrFahrenheit]

don't know if my soldering skills could make it, but good hint anyway.

and yes, getting that adapter to Italy cost me 100€+ for fedex fast shipping (fast indeed, less than a week) plus 35€+ for customs clearing so... I could have probably bought another 50 pins scsi disk with that money. Anyway, I am glad I could solve this. Now I have a nice Quadra 700 to play with

Oh wow!  That’s a lot!!  I apologize if I’m responsible for that. 

 

[micheledipaola]

Oh wow!  That’s a lot!!  I apologize if I’m responsible for that. 

Don't worry, nothing to apologize for. 

it is costly indeed,  but I am super happy it could solve my problem.

 

[MrFahrenheit]

There are still situations where the cheap, non-terminated adapters can be a good option, still. If you're installing it into a Mac with multiple SCSI devices, for example a CD-ROM drive, you can just terminate that instead. As long as you don't have one of the super fussy drives, it'll work fine. Even if the terminated device is connected inbetween the SCA drive and the logic board. That's the current test rig I have set up with my Performa 600, which works nicely. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in other Macs with the ability for multiple SCSI drives, like the Quadra 800, 840AV, 950, or the PowerMac 6100/7100/8100, etc. It's currently running an Ultra160 Fujitsu that allows for Narrow Mode to be jumpered, and I hope to find more drives to test, to eventually compile into a list somewhere on the site, but it seems cheap SCA drives have dried up around here.

I would agree a terminating adapter is a must for single internal SCSI device Macs like the Quadra 700, but the sad fact is that there don't seem to be many sellers out there for these, and the linked one is insanely expensive to ship to Europe. There is however, the ability to terminate such an adapter by hand, for those crafty enough, which would be a good chunk of change saved: 

Some of the ones I have that don’t have any termination also don’t work in the middle of the SCSI chain. I’ve read something about extra lines needing termination and in general a narrow bus doesn’t terminate the high lines regardless of what terminator is on the end. Or something like that. 
 

All I know is the ones from that store work, and I have a box of ones from eBay sellers that don’t work at all, regardless of how I configured the drives on the bus. 

 

[Daniël]

Some of the ones I have that don’t have any termination also don’t work in the middle of the SCSI chain. I’ve read something about extra lines needing termination and in general a narrow bus doesn’t terminate the high lines regardless of what terminator is on the end. Or something like that. 
 

All I know is the ones from that store work, and I have a box of ones from eBay sellers that don’t work at all, regardless of how I configured the drives on the bus. 

It does seem like maybe drives that won't necessarily deal with the Narrow SCSI Bus, might do so out of termination related problems. I have two 72GB U320 drives that don't have a jumper for Narrow Mode, and those won't work at all. The thread I linked does also have a mod to do the termination for the full SCA80 connector data lines if necessary, I'm probably going to try that on one of the adapters I have to see if that makes the 72GB drives work.

 

[trag]

There are still situations where the cheap, non-terminated adapters can be a good option, still. If you're installing it into a Mac with multiple SCSI devices, for example a CD-ROM drive, you can just terminate that instead. As long as you don't have one of the super fussy drives, it'll work fine.

Not strictly true.   The 80 pin drives are wide devices.  The Mac has a narrow SCSI bus.   Even though the upper (wide) bits aren't being used, they should be terminated on the drive.   So just putting the drive bare in the middle of a properly terminated SCSI chain might work, but it is not proper SCSI configuration.   The upper bits on the wide drive must be terminated, unless it is in the middle of a wide SCSI chain.

 

[Daniël]

Not strictly true.   The 80 pin drives are wide devices.  The Mac has a narrow SCSI bus.   Even though the upper (wide) bits aren't being used, they should be terminated on the drive.   So just putting the drive bare in the middle of a properly terminated SCSI chain might work, but it is not proper SCSI configuration.   The upper bits on the wide drive must be terminated, unless it is in the middle of a wide SCSI chain.

Yeah, I misunderstood it. I should have specified that the drive I was using is an NP model of Fujitsu U160 SCA drive, that does have the jumper for Narrow mode. Am I correct to assume that my SCA U320 drives that aren't recognized in the same setup, and don't have the narrow mode jumper setting, would work in a narrow bus Mac with the upper bits properly terminated? @max1zzz's thread on terminating the adapters does have an example on terminating the upper bits on one of these adapters, if I recall correctly, so I might need to try that and see if my 72GB drives would work on Macs then.