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Rethinking my bridge/server setup

gcp

Well-known member
Reading this thread makes me regret selling off my G4 mini (purchased on the day it was announced!) for like $80 ~15 years ago... Didn't see that regret coming! Thought there was no way I'd have a use for it again! :D
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
Reading this thread makes me regret selling off my G4 mini (purchased on the day it was announced!) for like $80 ~15 years ago... Didn't see that regret coming! Thought there was no way I'd have a use for it again! :D
Just happened to be my solution: I am sure there are many more possible. In fact, I now have the little guy ridding piggyback on my PT Pro, and doing very well with the SSD fun of Classic Mac Software, and a nice wired ethernet connection.
 

joshc

Well-known member
I used a G4 mini as my bridge machine until it started to have issues starting (RAM problem I think, but I never found time to look into it), so that was passed onto another MLAer to take care of. I also had an Intel mini I was going to use for this purpose, but it ended up being one that someone had upgraded the CPU on, so it would not run the version of OS X I wanted, so that was sold on. I did find the G4 mini ran quite hot so I also wonder if that factored into its demise, so I still think a Pi is the lowest maintenance solution you can get.
 

desertrout

Well-known member
I also use a G4 mini with 10.4.11 as my bridge machine - it just tucks away on my desk here, no need to plug a monitor or peripherals into it, just turn it on when I need to pass stuff through. I also use it for Basilisk and Sweet 16, I guess just to keep things compartmentalized. Icing on the cake: got it for $30 a couple years ago because the seller figured it was broken, but turns out these don't like the kind of DVI-to-HDMI cable he was using.

@LaPorta I'm curious about your ability to get machines with > 7.5.3 to connect to 10.4; what exactly are you doing on either end? Is 7.1.1 the floor?
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
@LaPorta I'm curious about your ability to get machines with > 7.5.3 to connect to 10.4; what exactly are you doing on either end? Is 7.1.1 the floor?
So, I'll give you the rundown on exactly what I did to make this work:

1. In OS X 10.4, I used the SharePoints program version 3.5.1 (the version is important), because the later version that is supposed to be for 10.4 omits the option to enable AppleTalk for AFP (even though it is still possible to enable it).

2. In System 7.1, I installed OT and upgraded to the newest version that would run

3. On the same machine, I replaced the built-in AppleShare extension with version 3.7.4 to allow AppleShare IP to work.

I can't take all the credit for this, I got the info from multiple sources. But, that is really all there was to it. As stated before, this will not work on 68000 equipped machines because OT cannot run on it, and I don't think OT runs on System 6, either.
 

desertrout

Well-known member
So, I'll give you the rundown on exactly what I did to make this work:

1. In OS X 10.4, I used the SharePoints program version 3.5.1 (the version is important), because the later version that is supposed to be for 10.4 omits the option to enable AppleTalk for AFP (even though it is still possible to enable it).

2. In System 7.1, I installed OT and upgraded to the newest version that would run

3. On the same machine, I replaced the built-in AppleShare extension with version 3.7.4 to allow AppleShare IP to work.

I can't take all the credit for this, I got the info from multiple sources. But, that is really all there was to it. As stated before, this will not work on 68000 equipped machines because OT cannot run on it, and I don't think OT runs on System 6, either.
Ah, interesting - Sharepoints is the key.. thanks, I'll try this out!
 

CTB

Well-known member
There is trickery that can be accomplished. With OT installed and a far newer AppleShare stolen from a newer system, my IIfx with 7.1.1 can connect to AppleShare over IP with my Quicksilver running 10.4.11 that has AppleTalk re-enabled. Can't connect to it with SE, though, because AppleShare over IP requires OT, and OT will not run on a 68000.
What exactly is the tricky required? I am trying to setup a similar server. It looks like a Mac Mini running 10.4 covers my 7.5.3 to 10.11 machines. I just need that 7.1 solution.
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
What exactly is the tricky required? I am trying to setup a similar server. It looks like a Mac Mini running 10.4 covers my 7.5.3 to 10.11 machines. I just need that 7.1 solution.
See three posts above.
 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
1. In OS X 10.4, I used the SharePoints program version 3.5.1 (the version is important), because the later version that is supposed to be for 10.4 omits the option to enable AppleTalk for AFP (even though it is still possible to enable it).

2. In System 7.1, I installed OT and upgraded to the newest version that would run

3. On the same machine, I replaced the built-in AppleShare extension with version 3.7.4 to allow AppleShare IP to work.

I think you're still using AFP over IP.

It's my understanding that 10.4's AFP server doesn't have necessary bits (as in program code) to work over AppleTalk, the way the servers from 10.2/3 do.

And, in 7.1, if you install the OT/AS from 7.5.x or 7.6.x you're... getting the IP functionality on your 7.1 machines. (Incidentally I think you tested this and found the same works for vtools? without any special effort to bridge AppleTalk over the Internet...)

The real test would be if system 6 can connect.

The good news is, I don't think anyone needs SharePoints for 10.4 on either Intel or PPC to be a viable part of this chain.

What specific version of OT
OpenTransport 1.3 or 1.3.1 should work. You may need to export and place the files by hand or lift it out of a working 7.5 install. A few people have reported good luck doing this.
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
The only thing Cory is that SharePoints does do something. If I activate AppleTalk in the Network pane of 10.4, my IIfx can't connect, it instead throws an error. Once, I use SharePoints to enable AppleTalk via its method, connecting works. I have absolutely no idea what is taking place, but I do know that I am unable to connect without using it.
 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Wild. It's my genuine understanding the AppleTalk portion of the file server in 10.4 is literally removed, so the button in SharePoints should do literally nothing.

However, it's possible that that button was an "enable AppleTalk and also do these three other things" button, and one of those three other things is what's making this work.

Looking at the SharePoints page -- all the stuff it does is already built into the OS, but this is one of many utilities from this era designed to make accessing built-in features easier or uncap limits Apple put into the client version of the OS.

That's just guesses though.

Secondarily: My guess is that the confounding factor here is Mac OS X (client) vs. Server. It's pretty normal for Apple server products to support more/different versions of things, both via literally different binaries (although AFAIK that's not the case here) and default or unexposed settings.

(but, disclaimer: my only testing w/ OT+AS on either ASIP6.3.3 or OS X 10.4 has been people with accounts on vtools logging in and reporting it working, I don't have 7.1 set up on anything with ethernet right now.)

It's probably not worth re-doing your setup right now, but your collection skews much older than mine and with that in mind: 10.3 may have been a better OS for Mini G4s explicitly doing file sharing to significantly older Macs. (looking: 10.3 shares the same 16TB volume limit 10.4 has so you don't even lose big disks, necessarily.)

My own focus/experience with 10.4 is primarily from having an Intel mini I wanted to use for a similar role, and also vtools.


(EDIT: I'm aware I'm probably the one who cheerlead for 10.4, and I am glad it's working, I'm genuinely unsure as to why this specific combination of things was required, nor do I know of a good way to figure out what SharePoints is doing to see if we can document it separately.)
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
I wish that I knew. I will do a more exhaustive search online for any information. Indeed, 10.3 probably would have worked just fine...had I not already known that the 10.4 trick worked, so I just ran with it. If I find out more, I will re-post here.
 

mikes-macs

Well-known member
The simplest way to see how a shared server is connected to a host is to Get Info on the share via the client.
Connecting to my iBook running Tiger with Sharepoints 3.5.1, using Mac IIsi 7.5.3 without OpenTransport running gave me Picture a.jpg
Connecting to my iBook running Tiger with Sharepoints 3.5.1, using Mac IIsi 8.1 with OpenTransport running gave me Picture b.jpg
Connecting to Classic II running 7.1 over PhoneNet using Mac IIsi 8.1 with OpenTransport running gave me Picture c.jpg

Clearly SharePoints is Sharing via TCP. The server is showing in the list of servers in the chooser on the clients but that doesn't necessarily mean it's connected via AppleTalk. Sharepoints does allow you to select which TCP port to use.
 

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slipperygrey

Well-known member
Incidentally, Netatalk comes with a few handy CLI tools to help you analyze AppleTalk and ASIP services, regardless of whether they're served by real Macs or Netatalk:

The nbplkup binary app / command (complies and installs with Netatalk proper) which sniffs all the AppleTalk services that it can see on the network. Ex.

Code:
$ nbplkup
                         rasp32:ProDOS16 Image                     65280.242:3
                         rasp32:Apple //e Boot                     65280.242:3
                         rasp32:AFPServer                          65280.242:131
                         rasp32:TimeLord                           65280.242:129
                         rasp32:Apple //gs                         65280.242:3
                  Performa 6360:ShareWayIP                         65343.140:4
                  Performa 6360:AFPServer                          65343.140:251
                  Performa 6360:Multi-User Client                  65343.140:48
                  Performa 6360:  Power Macintosh                  65343.140:252
                  Performa 6360:Workstation                        65343.140:4

The contrib/shell_utils/asip-status.pl Perl script which can inquire a particular server what kind of ASIP service that it is providing. Below is an example of my Performa 6360 w/ OS9.1.

Code:
$ ./asip-status.pl -i 10.0.0.156
AFP reply from 10.0.0.156:548 via IPv4
Flags: 1  Cmd: 3  ID: 57005
Reply: DSIGetStatus
Request ID: 57005
Machine type: Macintosh
AFP versions: AFPVersion 1.1,AFPVersion 2.0,AFPVersion 2.1,AFP2.2
UAMs: Cleartxt passwrd,Randnum exchange,2-Way Randnum exchange
Volume Icon & Mask: Yes
Flags:
    SupportsCopyFile
    SupportsChgPwd
    SupportsServerMessages
    SupportsServerSignature
    SupportsTCP/IP
    SupportsSuperClient
Server name: Performa 6360
Signature:
0f aa bb 60 0f aa bb 60 0f aa bb 60 0f aa bb 60  ...`...`...`...`

Network address: 10.0.0.156:548 (IPv4 address and port)
Network address: 65343.140 (ddp address)
  ##            #   #########
##  ##         # #  #       ##
# ##  ##  ##  #   # #       # #
#   ##  ##  ##   #####      ####
#     ##      # ########       #
#       ##    ####    ###      #
#         ##  #####   ####     #
#           # #### #  ####     #
#           # ### ##   # ##    #
#           # #####     ###    #
#           # #####    ####    #
#           # #### #   ####    #
##          # # ##      ###    #
 ###        # ## ####   ##     #
   ###      # ## ####  ###     #
   # ###    # ##  ##  ##########
  #    ###  # ############   #
 #       ###############      #
#          ####                #
################################
#                              #
################################
              # #
              # #
             #####
             #   #
             #   #
             #####
             # # #
    #########  #  ############
              # #
    ##########   #############

So from the above, you can clearly tell that my Performa 6360 is serving both an AppleTalk AFPServer at address 65343.140:251, as well as an ASIP server at address 10.0.0.156:548
 
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