Quadra 650 Strangeness with a SCSI2SD v6, System 7.1, and SCSI Manager 4.3

[turbodrubin]

Hi folks,

I'm new to this corner of the internet, but come to you having recently purchased a Quadra 650, the Mac I always wanted as a wee lad. Internally I've installed a SCSI2SD v6 (Rev f, updated to firmware 6.4.14) with a 2GB card, partitioned and initialized the volume using Apple HD SC Setup 7.3.5, and installed System 7.1 (and System Update 3.0).

All was going swimmingly until I tried installing SCSI Manager 4.3; as the desktop appears (post-"Welcome to Macintosh"), the system seems to hang with the "disk activity" LED on the SCSI2SD lit and unblinking, unresponsive mouse button and keyboard (though the cursor follows mouse movements without hesitation), and no amount of waiting is sufficient.

I have a few other INITs installed, but they don't seem to make any difference.

The SCSI2SD configuration is as shown, with Parity, Unit Attention, and SCSI 2 all enabled:


Any suggestions, ideas, or wild shots in the dark? I'd really like to get this upgrade without having to install System 7.5+, but my google-fu is failing me and I'm not knowledgeable enough to start tracing through MacsBug. Thanks!

 

[ArmorAlley]

I assume that you have followed the standard SCSI rules: each device has its own unique SCSI-ID, each SCSI-ID is less than 7 and the device at the end of each physical chain must be terminated.
Do you have a SCSI CD-ROM in your Q650?
Do you have any external SCSI devices?

Can you start your Q650 without any extensions installed (that is, by holding down the shift key during startup)?
Can you start up your Q650 without the SCSI Manager 4.3 extension?

BTW, what is the purpose of the setting Respond to short SCSI selection pulses?
On a different note, does a v6 bring more to a Q650 than a v5.2?
Does the Q650 have a faster SCSI chip? I didn't think it did but I am open to correction.

 

[lobust]

Not at home to check anything just now, but I use a SCSI2SD v6 on my Q800, which as you probably know is the same logic board as the Q650.

Replying to remind myself to look when I get home!

What I can tell you from memory is that I specifically recall also not being able to boot with SCSI Manager 4.3 installed at some point, but I don't know right now if that's because of the SCSI2SD or because of the Quadra. I was 100% experimenting with SCSI nubus cards at the time too, seeing if it was possible (it wasn't) to boot from a nubus scsi card when the onboard scsi was dead.

I generally run 8.1 on that system, but I have had 7.6 for sure running on there, and I think 7.1 too (I run 7.1 on my Quadra 700, so I might be getting mixed up).

 

[mdeverhart]

Based on Inside Macintosh D: Devices, chapter 4, SCSI Manager 4.3 requires system 7.5:

“SCSI Manager 4.3 is an enhanced version of the SCSI Manager that provides new features as well as compatibility with the original version. SCSI Manager 4.3 is contained in the ROM of high-performance computers such as the Macintosh Quadra 840AV and the Power Macintosh 8100/80. Beginning with system software version 7.5, SCSI Manager 4.3 is also available as a system extension that can be installed in any Macintosh computer that uses the NCR 53C96 SCSI controller chip.”

That aligns with this TidBITS article from 1994:

https://tidbits.com/1994/11/07/why-scsi-manager-4-3/

So - I’d say decide if you want to run System 7.1 or 7.5, and not worry about SCSI Manager 4.3. If you want 7.1, try disabling SM4.3 and see if that works.

 

[cheesestraws]

Yeah, I thought 4.3 required 7.5, also...

 

[turbodrubin]

Thanks for your help!

I assume that you have followed the standard SCSI rules: each device has its own unique SCSI-ID, each SCSI-ID is less than 7 and the device at the end of each physical chain must be terminated.

Yes indeed.

Do you have a SCSI CD-ROM in your Q650?
Do you have any external SCSI devices?

I have a 300i installed as device #3, but no external devices.

Can you start your Q650 without any extensions installed (that is, by holding down the shift key during startup)?

Yes, everything works fine (minus the missing extension functionality ).

Can you start up your Q650 without the SCSI Manager 4.3 extension?

Yes, everything works great.

BTW, what is the purpose of the setting Respond to short SCSI selection pulses?

To be honest, I'm not certain. I enabled it thinking it might make a difference; it doesn't.

On a different note, does a v6 bring more to a Q650 than a v5.2?
Does the Q650 have a faster SCSI chip? I didn't think it did but I am open to correction.

Probably not, but I bought a v6 a couple of years ago to use in a retro PC with fancier SCSI hardware, so that's what I had available for setting up the Q650.

On the subject of requiring 7.5, I interpreted the line from IM: D differently:

Beginning with First shipping with system software version 7.5, SCSI Manager 4.3 is also available [seperately] as a system extension that can be installed in any Macintosh computer that uses the NCR 53C96 SCSI controller chip.

Seems that my interpretation is likely incorrect...

 

[eharmon]

Thanks for your help!


Yes indeed.

I have a 300i installed as device #3, but no external devices.

Yes, everything works fine (minus the missing extension functionality ).

Yes, everything works great.

To be honest, I'm not certain. I enabled it thinking it might make a difference; it doesn't.

Probably not, but I bought a v6 a couple of years ago to use in a retro PC with fancier SCSI hardware, so that's what I had available for setting up the Q650.

On the subject of requiring 7.5, I interpreted the line from IM: D differently:

Seems that my interpretation is likely incorrect...

Necromancing this thread, I happened to try the same thing last night with a ZuluSCSI and it worked fine for me. My Q800 board boots into System 7.1 + System Update 3.0 just fine. I'm not sure how to benchmark the differences though because they really only matter when there's concurrent SCSI transfers, afaik.

In fact, before 7.5 was published I believe this is how it was seeded to developers to try it, so I'm pretty sure it was designed to work with 7.1. Some developer CDs just seeded a loose copy of the beta extension.

I am using the last stable 68k Apple disk drivers though, and given the 4.3 docs I think the driver support matters quite a bit. It does some tricks to emulate older driver interfaces, and deal with the fact that the machine can't actually boot in 4.3 mode when the ROM doesn't support it and has to swizzle some things on boot.

Also curious where you got your copy of the extension from. I pulled one directly from the first release of 7.5, but it's possible there are later versions which aren't compatible. Eventually it was pushed into the system file as well.

 

[theirongiant]

I had a similar issue on a Quadra 650 I just bought last week. I have a BlueSCSI. whenever it was plugged in, the computer would hang.

After a few minutes of pondering, I realized it might possibly be a SCSI ID conflict, because prior to this, all the computers I have been using with a BlueSCSI have only had hard drives. This computer had a CD ROM drive.

Sure enough, the jumpers on the back of the CD ROM Drive corresponded to SCSI ID 3.

I changed the jumpers so that the CDROM Drive has a SCSI ID of 1. That way, I can configure up to five images in sequential order on the BlueSCSI, and use them between computers without having to constantly change the ID numbers.

Pro tip: if you are going to connect a BlueSCSI to a Quadra, and it's inside the stock 3-D printed case, you are going to need a right angle DB 25 adapter or extension cable. See photos.

 

[Phipli]

Sure enough, the jumpers on the back of the CD ROM Drive corresponded to SCSI ID 3.

ID 3 is the default for CD-ROM drives.

I changed the jumpers so that the CDROM Drive has a SCSI ID of 1. That way, I can configure up to five images in sequential order on the BlueSCSI, and use them between computers without having to constantly change the ID numbers.

Hum, I'd have changed the BlueSCSI from ID3. If you plug it into another Mac with a built in CD-ROM you'll have the same issue again.

Generally, the built in hard disk is ID0, the CD is 3, the computer itself is 7, a Zip is 5 or 6... I forget any other defaults. ID 1, 2 and 4 are generally safe bets. Others are often used.

 

[theirongiant]

ID 3 is the default for CD-ROM drives.

Hum, I'd have changed the BlueSCSI from ID3. If you plug it into another Mac with a built in CD-ROM you'll have the same issue again.

Generally, the built in hard disk is ID0, the CD is 3, the computer itself is 7, a Zip is 5 or 6... I forget any other defaults. ID 1, 2 and 4 are generally safe bets. Others are often used.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll keep that in mind. Good tip about the ZIP drives. It works for me and this setup.

 

[Phipli]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll keep that in mind. Good tip about the ZIP drives. It works for me and this setup.

Yeah, no problem, just warning you for next time you plug it into another Mac with a CD drive