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Powerbook 5300c Battery Rebuild (sorta)

raoulduke

Well-known member
The DS2401 is a ROM, which I gather must have something to do with the way the computer knows the battery is charged.  Now I'm thinking there may only have been two pins originally.

http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/digital/memory-products/DS2401.html

If we think of the pins on the battery pack as 1-5 from right to left facing the front of the battery:

The ROM pins are labeled 1 (ground), 2 (data) and 3 (NC - no connection).  Ground was connected to Battery Pin 2; Data was connected to Battery Pin 3; Battery Pin 4 is connected via wire to Battery Pin 2; Battery Pin 1 is the positive lead and Battery Pin 5 is the negative lead.

So maybe there is just a problem with the 5300's power board.  I'm discharging the batteries with a simple, jury rigged circuit now.  I'll try again with the 3400 tomorrow.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
Thank you. I actually used this knife suggestion to open my battery cases (I had read this). I had not noticed that he likely did what I did since I think the 5300 battery uses those longer cylindrical NiMHs and not AAs like he and I both use. When it discharges to 14v I'll try again.

Also the ROM in his battery has different leads. The 3rd on mine is definitely no contact. Maybe bc I started it off charging in the 3400 then switched to the 5300 it screwed something up with the ROM or maybe it's dead.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
So I skimmed it to I think 14.4v which is technically the minimum full charge of the batteries (1.2v x 12) although they actually charge to up to 16.8v when new (1.4v x 12) [and Apple notes the full voltage should be 14v].  This had no real effect on the 5300.  Like the first time, it sort of allowed it to power for a few seconds.  It would not boot off just the battery, and that few second charge (when removing battery) did not replicate itself - it only happened once.

There are two thoughts I have.  One is that the components are dead.  I hope - if that's the case - that it's the ROM that I've bought replacements for.  If not, I couldn't find any info on the other component/don't know what it is: "KLIXON V5J 6MM82AA-04".  Ideally if I replace the ROM, I might as well replace this but I can't at the moment for the aforementioned reasons.

The other thought is the batteries themselves.  I've seen mention of "slow drain" batteries and these say "Standard charge [/] 16 hours at 350mA".  I took that to be a duration of charge metric.  It is possible that they're only capable of putting out 350mA (and I think the computer needs 1.5A but I'm not sure).  However, all the batteries I found had this metric.  To wit - these 3500mAh batteries note 350mA for a 16 hour charge.  Various 2500 ones noted 250mA etc. etc.  [X mAH > X/10 mA for Y hours] So I'm not sure that's it.

I'll report back when I replace the ROM.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
*I think the 350 mA / 16 hours is actually the current to the batteries when they're charging.  I buried the lead there because it briefly powered on the 5300 and briefly (at times) powered the 5300 and it's fully charged.  It's clearly hitting the contacts.  So I think there's something wrong with how the 5300 reads the battery - and I would bet that's actually in the battery itself.  Here's hoping it's the ROM.

Also buried: what is this?  "KLIXON V5J 6MM82AA-04"

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
I put the ROM in wrong.  The right wire goes to the middle pin and the left wire goes to the second pin from the right.  Fixing that didn't change anything.  Will replace ROM and possibly battery protector (the Klixon part) if I can figure out how to buy a YS11 - the Klixon is from the 6mm Battery Protector series (superseded - along with the 4mm series - by the YS11).  It's a thermistor that opens at 75C.  I've taken it out and just connected the circuit directly and I've left it in.  I don't believe it's the problem.  However if the ROM placed correctly is no different than the ROM placed incorrectly, again suggests it's the ROM.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
I'm going to have to declare temporary failure/hiatus.  I replaced the ROM.  The battery appears capable of powering the charge light (near-indefinitely) but not much more.  I'm out of ideas other than that.

I will note that another NiMH 190/5300 battery I have had a circuit board inside but there was nothing like that in the original.  [Has that board in addition to the thermistor, ROM and one other component that I couldn't readily identify.]

 
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techknight

Well-known member
The PB5300 wont startup on its internal battery if the PRAM is reset or its battery is dead/bad. That much I do know.

3400 wont either

 

Elfen

Well-known member
The PB5300 can start with a dead PRAM Battery (Mine's been dead for years!), you just have to press the keyboard ON/Off Switch and hold it down, then the reset switch on the back, letting go of the keyboard first and then the reset in the back. The PB5300 should Bong and the screen should light up, it will take a while before the RAM Test is started as the PB5300 is going through some diagnostic routines, and then it will boot. It just takes longer for it to do.

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
Well I tested this one on the Kanga, which does not recognize it.  When I press reset on the Kanga with only the battery in, I can hear the power board (probably transformer) power on and then shut down - which is what you'd hear if you plugged it in and quickly unplugged it (for instance).

I just resoldered everything (before the test) on the very vague chance the ROM wasn't properly contacting the pins but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I may just transfer this setup to the other NiMH framework I have.  The lithium battery cases are due to ship at the end of April; so that's my backup plan, basically.

 

raoulduke

Well-known member
I swapped out the cases and batteries into the (other) 5300/190 replacement NiMH battery.  It had a circuit board, some other maybe temperature-related component and no ROM (probably that's in the circuit board somewhere).  This one for sure powers the 5300 - at least to chime.  Probably the batteries have died over the last week, so I'm charging it now.

But it seems that there must have been a component issue with the other setup.  Maybe the way the ROM was connected when I pulled it out wasn't the original way it was connected; or maybe I just didn't actually let it charge enough.  I honestly don't know what was wrong with it, except that I'll probably leave the NiMH batteries in the other one at least for now.  I'll post a picture tomorrow.

 

Elfen

Well-known member
RaoulDuke, you need to check what batteries you are working with - Lithium Ion, Nickel Cadmium or Nickel Metal Hydride - all three were used in the 190/530. The circuit board is both a temperature sensor and a serial-ROM for charging it. Mixing these up with the batteries and the rebuilt battery pack will not work.

You might be able to get away without the ROM/Sensor on a Nickel Cadmium Pack but not on a Lithium Ion Pack as the Li-Ion pack will explode, while the NiCad will get very hot. But I would not recommend it. The ROM/Sensor is there for a reason.

So try to remember what went where and put it back the way it was, and make sure the batteries you get match the ones being replaced.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
Not applicable.  The NiMH batteries in the original 5300 batteries were slightly larger than AAs, totally unlabeled, and of an unknown (to me) type.  The ones I replaced them with are AAs.  The lithium battery is separate from all this.

The only differences between my circuit and the original one are a) use of battery cases rather than spot-welding; b ) AA batteries rather than the unlabeled larger types used in both NiMH batteries (I don't know what they are); c) my specific soldering.

A) I don't think it's the soldering, which I've totally redone several times with no difference.

B ) I don't think it's the use of cases since the voltage reads normally off the pins.

C) The only other things I can think of is that maybe the original ones were multiple-celled or something else that creates an incompatibility; or perhaps (also) the AAs have too low a maximum amperage - I've never found a rating for them in their documentation.

But the original cells were 1.2V and the new ones are minimum 1.2V although they generally charge to a little more (they're new) but I think that would have also been true of the original cells and is just characteristic of NiMH batteries.  In both cases there are 12 (12x original, 12x AA).  Moreover, in that article you posted, Elfen, the guy did the same thing.  I think the original cells in his Dell battery were the same as the ones in the Powerbook batteries.  He also replaced them with AAs.  I'm unclear on the amperage issue.

There's no PRAM battery in the 5300.  I used your (Elfen) reset-soft power on method and it worked sometimes, but that's potentially another issue.  I don't really want to test this in the Kanga anymore on the offchance I can do damage to it.

 
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Elfen

Well-known member
This is scarier than at first thought. You are going to need to remove the 5300 board and inspect the underside of the powersupply/recharging circuit area. Check for the obvious - corrosion in the area which might be shorting out the circuit. Clean out and resolder any bad solder joints you find.

Also check the insulating plastic on the 5300 case. Make sure there are no holes where the 5300 board could short out against the RF shield of the 5300 case. The clips to the battery from the board also needs to be looked at and resoldered if necessary.

I will dare say that there might be a bad regulator on it but that will be difficult to fix. If the 5300 turns on with the power pack alone, then it should be enough to do other things you need to do with it.

BUT - I know this from a ThinkPad 560E that I have. It has a 1/4 shorted battery, which wont charge and wont power the unit, and the 560E runs hot with it plugged in. Given, it is partly shorted out. But when the hard drive failed, I replaced it with a CF/IDE SSD in it. Now, believe it or not, the battery charges 3/4 of the way but never full as that part is shorted out and it runs the machine for about an hour without being plugged in! I'm thinking that the battery shorted out when the hard drive was going bad years ago, and with the hard drive bad, the battery was never powerful enough to run it and the laptop too. When plugged in (when the bad hard drive worked before it died) both it and the battery were getting hot because of the high current draw the hard drive was pulling.

But does this apply to the 5300? Only way to test it is to do several tests - run it without the battery, run it without the hard drive and run it without the floppy drive. Something in the system is pulling to much power from the sounds of it. Thing is what? If the power supply area is bad, only a couple of people here might be able to fix it. I'm not one of them as I do not have the tools to fix it with.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
Two things.  The thermistor negative lead keeps 'falling' off.  It's happened twice; I'm not clear on how.  But that may be happening after I disengage the battery anyway [because I didn't cut the tabs off the bottom of the second case yet so the battery cases rub against the top of the battery slot].

The other possibility is that there was a wire soldered to the tab between two batteries in the series.  I soldered it to the little wire between two batteries on one of the cases - because I didn't see a difference or an analog.  But on the board it indicates (I now see) that it's supposed to be 5V.  On the dead setup, each battery registers about .5V and at the tab where the wire was soldered it registered about 1V, so I'd bet it's getting 2.4-2.8V [because the AA batteries range from 1.2V to 1.4V (when new)].

What should I do about that after I actually test it?  It needs to get 5V as far as I can tell.

(Moreover, this second possibility cannot affect the first battery setup.  Nor, frankly would the problematic thermistor connection.)
 

The power board - which also holds the battery connection/charging apparatuses - I replaced after getting the 5300c.  I bought one (along with the RAM card) from Unity.  It was in its original wrapping and we both suspected it was unused.  This may not speak to the electrolytic components on the board itself.  However, there is no corrosion for that reason.  The other power board I have is badly corroded - most of one of the pins that hits the battery pins fell off.  But that one still recognized the original battery before I gutted it.  I think I tested it with my original rebuild (in addition to the 'new' power board).  No effect.

I have trouble believing it's the batteries themselves (I tested each battery individually - none are 'bad' per voltage).  I will strip the 5300 and try it a little later after I resolder the thermistor.

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
Ugh... so I bought a cheap 5300cs. It came with an immaculately preserved power board and battery (at least from the outside). On second-look, I think the batteries in the original NiMH pack are actually AA, although they're a little wider than the AAs I have. Anyway, I took the three middle pins and replaced the middle pins on the setup I'd been using. It was immediately recognized by the Kanga. Then the battery icon on the menu bar turns red with a lightning pic - which to me suggests either it's charging or it's seeing it as dead.

I'm uncomfortable leaving it in the Kanga. At the moment it's charging (in theory) in the 5300c. However, I have a suspicion it won't work. I also don't really know what this says about why my other... basically identical... setup didn't work - unless the ROM was specifically paired to something - I'm not sure what (voltage, amperage).

As best I can tell there's no documentation on the battery itself.

(Like... Elfen I get your point about the potential short, I just can't figure out where it could possibly be - if there is one. )

 
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raoulduke

Well-known member
Actually it looks like that is the charging icon (I'm not familiar with Powerbooks running on batteries)/it just fully powered on the 5300c.

I apologize that there are probably two or three sets of conflicting accounts about how to install that ROM.

This pic shows the wire from pin 3 to 4, the ROM leads to pins 2 and 3, and the cut third ROM lead.  [Oh that would be when facing the labeled, flattened side of the ROM.  This shouldn't be too complicated - the cut lead is NC (No Connection) in documentation. http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/DS2401.pdf]

 
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