Made ROM SIMMs, wrote ROMdisk driver, need help debugging

[JDW]

Also an SE/30. 

I just sent you a PM with two videos.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Plastic or metal clips, mine are plastic. I'm going to give it a shot today or tomorrow.

 

[tt]

I've had a lot of time to think about what to include in a 'recover' image on the thread https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&controller=topic&id=56932

I'm curious if we could fit all of these utilities in the 8MB SIMM with System 8.1, I would definitely order one. Since it has a switch for 2 different 8MB ROMs, maybe one with the popular 7.1 option, and the other with 8.1 for HFS+ support?

Your 8.1 ROM image thread is interesting. I'm guessing it would be feasible to have a 7.1 image with Ethernet and AppleShare for an 8MB ROM. Have you come across anyone making a ROM disk image like that?

 

[ZaneKaminski]

I've sent you two PMs about your ROM over the past few days but haven't heard back from you. 

QUESTION 1: Do these ROMs come programmed or not?  It might be blank.

QUESTION 2:  If the ROM is blank, can I use my ROM-inator II programmer to program Zane's ROM?  If so, where is the *.bin file?

Sorry for my absence--please check your PMs.

Yes, it should have been programmed when sent to you, but a mixup could have happened. I am not sure if the programmer can program my ROM SIMM, but it can certainly read it out (if indeed it originally supported that feature). The ROM is here, named rom2M.bin: https://github.com/garrettsworkshop/MacIIROMDiskDriver/tree/dev/bin

@ZaneKaminski Are the SIMMs programmable from the host machine? If not, can we use our programmers that were designed by @dougg3? I saw the screenshot of the utility to adjust the options, how does that work? Your comments on updating the way drivers work in ROM are very interesting.

  

Is it possible to fit networking in the 7.1 boot image to allow for connecting to AppleShare servers? This is something I've wanted to do with my 8MB SIMM but I don't remember if it wasn't feasible or if it requires too much space.

Also definitely interested in buying one. If you need help testing the new 8MB board I'm interested in checking it out.

No unfortunately it's not possible to program them from the host machine. If the dougg3 programmer does not work with the SIMM, it would just be a software issue that can be rectified with an update. I will look into this after we send the 8MB SIMM out since the chips are not socketed on that one. Yeah, I have included AppleTalk on the 7.1 image (for the 8MB ROM) as well as the 6.0.8 image (for the 2MB ROM). I think we have enough testers right now, but we have more gizmos planned in the future so there will be opportunities to test other things.

I've had a lot of time to think about what to include in a 'recover' image on the thread https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&controller=topic&id=56932

I'm curious if we could fit all of these utilities in the 8MB SIMM with System 8.1, I would definitely order one. Since it has a switch for 2 different 8MB ROMs, maybe one with the popular 7.1 option, and the other with 8.1 for HFS+ support?

Ooh yes, this is a good idea. I am getting sick of having to transfer stuff between my old Macintoshes and new Macs as binhex files on a FAT-format floppy.

Trying to get what everyone wants from their recovery partition into 8mb, especially a read-only 8mb, sounds like an impossibility.  A better option is probably where things were going to start with; provide enough of a basis to get other things on safely.  So, disk utilities, CD-ROM drivers, maybe Zip disk drivers (?), Ethernet drivers, Disinfectant, AppleShare.  It's probably better to think about this as a Disk Tools replacement, rather than as a full Recovery Partition.

Yes, I've been seeing it as a disk tools replacement too but didn't think to articulate it that way. I unfortunately even had to remove TattleTech, sadly, since the latest version comes in at 1.4 MB... too big considering everything else that must fit into the 7.5 MB image.  I've got everything you mentioned except the Zip disk drivers and the ethernet drivers. I can include the Iomega Zip disk driver, but there are quite a few manufacturers of ethernet cards and even more card models. Unless someone has some kind of universal driver for all of the adapters with a particular chipset, I don't think ethernet drivers should be included. BMoW's SIMM has compression, so you can evidently get 50% more space, but that requires a lot of RAM to decompress the image into, so we prefer to target ours a little differently and not implement any kind of compression. So unfortunately we're stuck with 7.5 MB.

Oh, on a funny note, I just graduated from college in May, and while putting the 8MB ROM disk together, I noticed one of my professors credited in the about screen of Disinfectant! How funny, in the "small world" kind of way--he is in the mathematics department at The Ohio State University, not even in the computer science or EE department. I'm gonna write him a note about it.

 

[ZaneKaminski]

Oops, didn't see the posts on page 4 earlier when I replied...

Stuffit Expander does have an alternative: MindExpander. It's not open source, but it is Freeware IIRC. I used to use that in the late era Mac OS before moving on to Mac OS X. Seemed compatible enough and was less bloated than Stuffit Expander, and I can't remember having any issues with it either.

Ooh, I will look into MindExpander, including just personally.

Also, I'd vote BBEdit Lite (freeware) to be included.

Hm yes, I would like to, but BareBones still exists so I will have to ask them. Hopefully they agree.

A couple of them pop up often enough in older downloads in my experience that it's probably better to be safe, especially given that Disinfectant is really light and small.

Unfortunately it's still ~600 kB, which is a lot heavier than some of the more basic utilities which may weigh in at just 8-32 kB. But it's worth it to include.

 

[jammi]

BTW, Norton Utilities although commercial, is a powerful utility pack and the company does not exist anymore.

Edit: Apparently Norton still exists. Symantec Utilities for Macintosh is another set of powerful disk tools. Not all of them are useful though.

 

[ZaneKaminski]

Good news! The 8MB SIMM works!



Thanks to all of the testers for their diligent work on the 2 MB SIMM! @JDW uncovered a significant defect in the 2 MB SIMM which is possibly the reason it didn’t work in his SE/30. Fortunately the 8 MB SIMM doesn’t have this issue, so hopefully that will fix the incompatibility with his machine.

So 8 MB SIMMs are going out to testers soon!

If the 8 MB SIMM testing goes better than the 2 MB testing (which went okay from a software perspective, but there were too many mechanical issues in SE/30s), we will be able to finalize the disk images and the release plan.

One question about MacsBug—I included MacsBug 6.6.3 in the 7.5 MB ROM disk with System 7.1. MacsBug loaded fine in my brief testing when booting from ROM, but when I enabled the RAM disk, MacsBug wouldn’t load. The error was something along the lines of “can’t allocate enough memory below BufPtr.” I was running on a IIsi with 17 MB RAM in 32-bit addressing mode. The ROM disk driver allocates a 7.5 MB buffer in high memory, and the traditional minimum value of BufPtr is like 1/2 of the memory size. I would think there would be another megabyte available below BufPtr, less anything else allocated in high memory. So does MacsBug 6.6.3 make a ~1 meg allocation in high memory at boot?

I’ll investigate the issue a little more later, but hopefully someone knows something about the memory requirements of MacsBug that’ll explain it. Right now I’ve packaged up all the 8MB SIMMs we have in preparation to send ‘em to testers, so I don’t have one to play with in a system with more RAM like my SE/30 or IIci.

 

[jammi]

One question about MacsBug—I included MacsBug 6.6.3 in the 7.5 MB ROM disk with System 7.1. MacsBug loaded fine in my brief testing when booting from ROM, but when I enabled the RAM disk, MacsBug wouldn’t load. The error was something along the lines of “can’t allocate enough memory below BufPtr.” I was running on a IIsi with 17 MB RAM in 32-bit addressing mode. The ROM disk driver allocates a 7.5 MB buffer in high memory, and the traditional minimum value of BufPtr is like 1/2 of the memory size. I would think there would be another megabyte available below BufPtr, less anything else allocated in high memory. So does MacsBug 6.6.3 make a ~1 meg allocation in high memory at boot?

I’ll investigate the issue a little more later, but hopefully someone knows something about the memory requirements of MacsBug that’ll explain it. Right now I’ve packaged up all the 8MB SIMMs we have in preparation to send ‘em to testers, so I don’t have one to play with in a system with more RAM like my SE/30 or IIci.

Congratulations on the ROM working. If I remember correctly, there was a way to set MacsBug settings, for instance I remember I had customized colors, some shortcut macros and panels on mine. It had to be some file in the System Folder, but I can't remember whether it was some text file or a resource on the Macsbug file or something else. Does anyone else recall something, since there may be ways to tweak around your issue.

 

[NJRoadfan]

Instead of filling the ROM disk to the brim with utilities, how about adding the required AppleShare prep files, Chooser, and the standard Apple Ethernet extension? That way folks with a LocalTalk or Ethernet (assuming they have a register compatible card or built-in) connected server can pull what software they need or even install System Software.

 

[JDW]

Good news! The 8MB SIMM works!

View attachment 36357

Thanks to all of the testers for their diligent work on the 2 MB SIMM! @JDW uncovered a significant defect in the 2 MB SIMM which is possibly the reason it didn’t work in his SE/30. Fortunately the 8 MB SIMM doesn’t have this issue, so hopefully that will fix the incompatibility with his machine.

So 8 MB SIMMs are going out to testers soon!

@ZaneKaminski, I sent you some PM's a week ago, giving you a detailed compatibility report regarding the 8MB ROM you kindly shipped to me for testing.  I haven't yet received a reply back from you so I thought I'd flag you about my PM's here.  Not sure if you are busy or if this forum's email notifications are down again.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Instead of filling the ROM disk to the brim with utilities, how about adding the required AppleShare prep files, Chooser, and the standard Apple Ethernet extension? That way folks with a LocalTalk or Ethernet (assuming they have a register compatible card or built-in) connected server can pull what software they need or even install System Software.

Networking would seem to me to be one of the things you'd worry about well after troubleshooting the rest of a system. Cart-horse when it comes to utilities as networking's dependent upon hardware in addition to the supported machine being sorted out?

 

[NJRoadfan]

Every 68k Macintosh has built-in LocalTalk networking and a pretty large majority of add-in Ethernet cards (particularly Nubus ones that would be used on these ROM SIMM compatible machines) are register compatible with Apple's card/driver.

 

[JDW]

While testing Zane's 8MB ROM, as I reported to him via PM, my MacCon Ethernet PDS card works just fine with his ROM, even when my MacCon is stacked atop my DiiMO PDS accelerator card.   

I am able to boot just fine with my 50MHz DiiMO PDS accelerator card (68030) installed, either from a SCSI hard disk or the FloppyEMU (using either a virtual floppy or HD20 mode) or from a real floppy disk.  I can format real floppy disks and duplicate disks just fine.

The bad news is that the motherboard-socketed Daystar PowerCache 50MHz 68030 accelerator board is NOT compatible with the 8MB ROM, as per the fact it yields the following screen on my SE/30.

But on a more positive note, I am able to boot my SE/30 just fine with my DayStar Turbo040 40MHz PDS accelerator card (with TS Adapter) installed (which I cannot do with the ROM-inator II unless I use the OlePigeon patched ROM), but the 8MB ROM only works fine from a SCSI hard disk or FloppyEMU virtual floppy disk (400K or 800K only).  HD20 Mode on the FloppyEMU does NOT work with the Turbo040 and Zane's 8MB ROM installed.  Also, 1.44MB disks, whether real floppy disks in the internal drive or 1.44MB disk images on the FloppyEMU do NOT work at all, whether I try to boot from them or simply try to mount them on the desktop when booted.  If I boot from a SCSI hard disk and insert a 1.44MB floppy, it asks me to initialize it.  But again, 400K and 800K disks work fine.  If I remove the Turbo040 and TS Adapter, then I can read/write 1.44MB floppy disks again.  This seems to be a bug with the 8MB ROM and the Turbo040 for SE/30.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Every 68k Macintosh has built-in LocalTalk networking  .  .  .

Yep, should have said Ethernet instead of "networking" as that's was what I was responding to in your post.

 

[tt]

If the 8 MB SIMM testing goes better than the 2 MB testing (which went okay from a software perspective, but there were too many mechanical issues in SE/30s), we will be able to finalize the disk images and the release plan.

What was the mechanical issue, the thickness of the ROM SIMM?

I ended up swapping the socket on a couple of my logic boards (somewhat invasive but worth it to me) and made a video on how to do it:

 

[JDW]

I ended up swapping the socket on a couple of my logic boards (somewhat invasive but worth it to me) and made a video on how to do it:

I am in more need of fixing broken RAM SIMM slot connectors due to those infernal plastic tabs breaking off!  Have you ever replaced the SIMM sockets?  Your video makes swapping the ROM SIMM slot look easy, especially since I have the same kind of desoldering station you do.  

Also what is your source for the SIMM slot connectors?  Mouser?  Have an exact web page URL?

Lastly, wherefore art thou, @ZaneKaminski?  Your lack of replies has me concerned.

 

[pax]

Lastly, wherefore art thou, @ZaneKaminski?  Your lack of replies has me concerned.

That's been on my mind too. I hope all is well. I tested the 2MB SIMM and it worked well for me.

 

[JDW]

That's been on my mind too. I hope all is well. I tested the 2MB SIMM and it worked well for me.

I just don't understand how some of you get the 2MB ROM to work.  I tried everything, including multiple motherboards.  I even added solder to each pad on the ROM SIMM.  Nothing -- I mean NOTHING -- worked.  Then Zane shipped me the 8MB version and it worked just fine on the first try.  I know it's not the content of the 2MB ROM because I have a ROM-inator II programmer and verified the ROM content that way.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Lastly, wherefore art thou, @ZaneKaminski?  Your lack of replies has me concerned.

That's been on my mind too. I hope all is well. I tested the 2MB SIMM and it worked well for me.

I wouldn't worry, they've gotta keep the operation running and likely have jobs IRL as well. I think they've got Apple II products and heaven knows what else cooking on the grill and side burner to attend to ATM. Things IRL get in the way of the important development stuff like this. []

I just don't understand how some of you get the 2MB ROM to work.  I tried everything, including multiple motherboards.  I even added solder to each pad on the ROM SIMM.  Nothing -- I mean NOTHING -- worked.  Then Zane shipped me the 8MB version and it worked just fine on the first try.  I know it's not the content of the 2MB ROM because I have a ROM-inator II programmer and verified the ROM content that way.

I wouldn't worry about it. Appears to be related to any individual machines connector. I can't get the 8MB SIMM to boot without applying finger/thumb pressure in my test setup, which is just about the same result I get with the original @dougg3 LED pirate SIMM and Rominator in my SE/30. I'm sure a fix is in the works, so just stop fiddling with fixing a well documented bug before you break a connector! []

 

[tt]

I am in more need of fixing broken RAM SIMM slot connectors due to those infernal plastic tabs breaking off!  Have you ever replaced the SIMM sockets?  Your video makes swapping the ROM SIMM slot look easy, especially since I have the same kind of desoldering station you do.  

 

Also what is your source for the SIMM slot connectors?  Mouser?  Have an exact web page URL?

Awesome, I was hoping to make it look straightforward. I haven't replaced the RAM sockets yet, but I did recently buy some from an eBay seller that come in a lot of 10 pcs. The 68 pin ones I got from a local shop several years ago, but I think I spotted mention of an online supplier in the thread about reverse engineering the SE logic board.