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LC 630 DOS + OS 8.1 = PC SETUP will not load

Brett B.

Well-known member
I personally do not feel that you are fighting an Apple-branded HD issue. I have had OS 8.1 on mine for many years and PC Setup and the PC side in general works perfectly, and I think I just have some random small IDE drive in the machine (IIRC just a 2 or 4 or 10GB one, I will have to check.) Certainly not Apple branded. I just used what I had back in the day...which amounted to donor parts from PCs at work. The ONLY problem I have with mine is that the CD-ROM does not work on the PC side... it did at one point in the past, but it does not now.

FWIW 8.1 is a quirky bastard and all the variations of installer files & discs & upgraders will cause you unending grief. The one I found that works best across multiple machines is the CD that came with Rev. A G3 iMacs. In my experience using that almost always results in an installation that is functional on the first try. It may be the install process itself - seems to me that some other "8.1" discs will run an 8.0 install first and then an upgrade to 8.1 whereas I think this one just goes straight to 8.1. In any case I have a variety of them and the iMac one has been working the best for me, since 1998 ;)

Now, keep in mind, I haven't messed with CF or SCSI2SD adapters or any of that. Just run of the mill IDE hard drives. So that may be a factor for you. In case it matters, I do have a full 040 in my LC630, and it's been overclocked to 40MHz. I also have a ton of RAM in it, 12x CD-ROM, AV card, TV tuner...... think I even put a faster 486 in the DOS card as well. Seems like everyone's mods have different end results these days though.
 

jeremywork

Well-known member
Hi Jeremy, when you did a fresh install did you also re-initialize your hard drive? If you did, what did you use? Because I just learned that drive setup may be part of the issue.
I actually didn't. I created an image in Disk Copy and installed 8.1 from the CD while still booted from 7.5.1 on the HD, then copied the contents of the image directly onto the HD so I could select it with System Picker. The HD's creation date says November 1995, so it's likely factory.

I think the formatter may be the problem. I've got a ZuluSCSI to try testing with so I'll let you know if I can make that work and with what software. If you haven't already though, I'd start by trying the three I mentioned worked with the AztecMonster: Anubis, Lido and FWB Hard Disk Toolkit. It's where I'll be starting...
 

jeremywork

Well-known member
I've never used a ZuluSCSI before, so some of these steps may be obvious:

• Inserted new SanDisk card to a USB card reader, left it formatted MS-DOS/Fat32 since that's how it came.
• Opened Disk Copy in classic environment on the Pismo and created a 2GB image file called HD1.img; formatted it Mac OS Standard.
• Ejected the mounted image; copied the .img file to the SD card's root.
• Inserted the SD card to ZuluSCSI (v1.1), connected to external SCSI on the 640CD and started up.
• No volumes mounted automatically at startup, but Anubis recognized the ZuluSCSI at ID 1.
• Performed auto setup and was prompted to initialize a 2000MB volume. Left all defaults and proceeded.
• Performed Finder drag-copy of all the files on the internal IDE drive to the new CharisMac™ 2000M volume.
• Selected the volume from Startup Disk control panel and restarted.
• The PC starts up normally.


• I shut down the PC, quit PC setup, and 'Put Away' the IDE hard drive (still mounted with the identical data)
• Opening PC setup still works, but it triggers the IDE drive to re-mount as soon as it opens. Odd...
• Changing the C file map reveals that it simply needed to be remapped to the file on the ZuluSCSI volume.
• After selecting the correct C file, the IDE drive can be put away and not remount when PC Setup is opened.
• PC still starts with only the ZuluSCSI drive mounted.
• Shut down the PC again and created a brand new drive file on the ZuluSCSI volume.
• PC still starts normally.

• Restarted the Macintosh. PC still starts.

I'd try formatting yours with Anubis and see if that solves it.

v2.5.4h is the version I used for this.

I've also had good luck with this 3.01 version for the SiliconExpress IV cards:
 
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Realitystorm

Well-known member
I personally do not feel that you are fighting an Apple-branded HD issue
I agree, the fact that I was able to write the image I made from my Apple 1.2 GB drive to the CF card and have it works tells me that there is no physical check by PCSETUP or 8.1 at run time (after installation), but I think there is something going on with either Drive Setup 1.4 or OS 8.1 during installation that is then impacting PCSETUP when it runs or installs.

I'd try formatting yours with Anubis and see if that solves it.

So I tried this to get a baseline:
I re-initialized my Apple 1.2GB using Anubis v2.54h, and did a full install of 8.1 (got a message saying 8.1 cannot update my non-apple driver), installed OT 1.3 and 1.3.1 update, installed PC SETUP 1.6.4..... and it did not work. My original issue, all icons disappear, hour glass appears, then everything comes back without PC SETUP 1.6.4 loading.

I also have a ZuluSCSI, so will try with that to see if I can reproduce Jeremy's result.
  1. Backup the files from my IDE drive (that currently isn't working)
  2. Re-initialize my IDE drive with drive setup 1.4 again
  3. Copy the files back to see if my IDE now works.... I'm hoping it doesn't. (edit: it did not)
  4. If the IDE drive doesn't doesn't work, then I will do a full re-install of 8.1 + PC SETUP to get a baseline working again. This would indicated that there is something going on during 8.1's setup process.
  5. Image my IDE drive like I did before.
  6. Setup my CF card identically to my IDE drive and back that up so I can do a Hex comparison.
  7. Initialize my ZuluSCSI with Anubis and copy the files from my working IDE installation (step 4) to try and replicate Jeremy's result both with and without my IDE drive physically connected to the system.
  8. IF the ZuluSCSI option works without my IDE drive attached, I plan to write the drive image I used for ZuluSCSI to the CF card and see if that boots. If it does I'll share that drive image.
 
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Realitystorm

Well-known member
If the IDE drive doesn't doesn't work, then I will do a full re-install of 8.1 + PC SETUP to get a baseline working again. This would indicated that there is something going on during 8.1's setup process.
So, now Drive Setup 1.4 + 8.1 + PC SETUP is not working on the Apple drive..... Trying to figure out what I may have done differently or if there is some other variable going on. Luckily I made a binary copy of the Apple drive when everything was working using my USB to IDE, so I'm writing that back to the drive to see if it works again and go from there.

I'm definitely having some interesting correlation vs causation going on while trying to figure all of this out. Watch in the end it will be some trivial thing that makes the difference. Will stopped posting for now until I finally get this thing working.
 

jeremywork

Well-known member
Hmm, I'm beginning to suspect something is still probing my IDE and finding the Apple Drive, even if it's not mounted.

I'm going to try Drive Setup on the ZuluSCSI to see if that produces your symptom before I try to remove the IDE drive without breaking plastic.
 

jeremywork

Well-known member
Test #1:

• Downloaded Drive Setup 1.7.3 and the patcher; created patched version on the IDE drive.
(http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php/FormatWithBasiliskII)
• Set the startup disk back to the IDE, then formatted the ZuluSCSI as a single 2GB partition (untitled) using patched Drive Setup 1.7.3.
• Performed Finder copy of all the same data as before to the untitled volume.
• Set Startup Disk control panel to untitled and rebooted.
• Computer booted back to IDE and prompted to initialize two 0KB ProDOS volumes. unititled was no longer mounted.
• DiskWarrior sees no recoverable volumes to rebuild.
• Reopened DS173 and began a block scan on ID 1: '<not mounted>'
• 'No problems found during testing.'
• Initialized 'untitled' again > 'Get Info' shows a 1.9GB Mac OS Standard volume on SCSI ID 1 (v8.1.2)
• Rebooted without adding any data to the volume.
• System again prompts to initialize a 0KB ProDOS volume. Attempting to initialize seems to hang at 'Creating directory...' with the stopwatch cursor spinning freely. No activity lights are present on the ZuluSCSI.

This is very similar to my experience with the CF AztecMonster on the Quadra 950.

Test #2:

• Soft reboot but this time no initialization prompts appeared. untitled is not mounted at startup.
• Performed auto setup in Anubis v2.5.4h again.
• Rebooted without copying data to the CharisMac volume > volume mounts normally at startup.
• Copied only the source material I'd previously used post-install (OT1.3, my ethernet driver, PC setup, TV/FM, some utilities)
• Inserted 8.1 retail CD (691-1912-B / U97073-121B) and shut down.
• Removed front panel (without any snaps, crackles, or pops) and slid the IDE drive out. It's marked IBM DALA-3540 with Apple OEM branding.
• Started from CD holding C and CharisMac volume mounted automatically.
• Performed the same customized-all options install as before. This time the installer warns the hard disk driver cannot be updated (expected.)

>> Installer produced an error that 'Drive Setup' cannot be replaced on the CharisMac volume and the installation aborts. Without quitting installer, I opened Disk Copy and created a new image file on CharisMac volume, moved all of the files from the CharisMac volume to the image, ejected it and deleted the source copies. Installation now proceeds.

• Restarted and booted normally from the ZuluSCSI.
>> I only installed OT1.3 last time because I realized I forgot to transfer the PC setup files before booting the 8.1. This time I'll skip until testing PC setup.
• Mounted my disk image from mid-install and copied the contents back to the CharisMac volume.
• Installed PC Setup 1.6.4 and rebooted.
• PC Setup now presents the symptom you reported. Desktop icons disappear, then return. No PC setup window.

• Shut down and reinserted IDE drive; started back up, still from ZuluSCSI.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.

• Set startup disk to [unchanged] IDE drive and rebooted.
• PC Setup opens and PC starts normally.

• Set startup disk back to ZuluSCSI and rebooted.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.
• Re-ran PC setup 1.6.4 installer on the CharisMac volume with the IDE drive mounted on the desktop; rebooted again to ZuluSCSI.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.
• Ran the PCsetup2x installer on the CharisMac volume, also while IDE drive was mounted; rebooted to ZuluSCSI.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.
• Finder drag-replaced PC Setup control panel on CharisMac volume with the instance on the IDE drive; rebooted.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.
• Replaced each of five extensions: PC Clipboard, PC Clipboard Translators, PC Compatibility Guide, PC Network Extension, and PC Print Spooler on the ZuluSCSI with the versions from the IDE drive and rebooted.
>> PC Network Extension claimed to be in use. Moved it to the desktop so the new copy could be added.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.
• Replaced the two files in the CharisMac volume's root directory with the instances on the IDE drive: PC Print Spooler and PC Clipboard; rebooted.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.
• Replaced two files in the Preferences folder: PC Setup Prefs and pcsetup2x.dlx with the versions from the IDE drive; rebooted.
• PC Setup does not start; same flash of desktop icons.
• Copied the C drive file from the IDE drive to the same location on the CharisMac volume. PC setup still does not start.

• Copied the entire System Folder from the IDE drive to a new folder on the CharisMac volume. Selected with System Picker and rebooted.
• PC Setup now opens and the PC starts when booted from IDE drive's System Folder on the ZuluSCSI.
• Shut down, removed IDE drive, and started back up.
• PC Setup still starts, PC still boots normally.

Something about installing 8.1 to an actual OEM drive and/or partition map seems to change the system folder, and it's at least not just the PC setup files.
 

Realitystorm

Well-known member
Thanks for all that testing. I've also now have PC Setup working with 8.1 on my ZuluSCSI 1.1 with SW1 enabled so that it emulates an Apple branded drive.
  1. I initialize the drive using an unpatched Drive Setup 1.4, I set it up as 2 volumes 2GB HFS and a 25GB HFS+
  2. I copied the files from my working IDE drive to the 2GB HFS drive.
  3. I then turned off my computer, disconnected my IDE drive and booted from the ZuluSCSI.
  4. It works, I have 8.1 working with PC Setup on my ZuluSCSI.
  5. I then hooked up my CF2IDE again, and initialized it using Drive Setup 1.4
  6. I copied over the files from my ZuluSCSI
  7. I selected the CF2IDE as the boot.... and it didn't work.
So right now it looks like we both have working ZuluSCSI drive image files for 8.1 and PC Setup.
Will keep experimenting because I would really like to have a working 32GB CF2IDE drive image file
 

Realitystorm

Well-known member
So, the 8.1 + PC SETUP configuration, for me at least, seems to be incredibly fragile.
I had it working on my Zulu SCSI, installed Anubis v2.5.4h to the Zulu SCSI so I could use it to initialize my CF2IDE card and see if that would work... it didn't... even worse the Anubis install modified something on my Zulu SCSI and PC SETUP stopped working.
So,
  1. I booted from the internal drive, erased the contents of the Zulu drive, re-copied the files back, booted from the Zulu drive.... and PC SETUP doesn't work
  2. I booted from the internal drive, re-initialized the Zulu drive with Drive Setup 1.4, , re-copied the files back, booted from the Zulu drive.... and PC SETUP doesn't work
  3. I turned my Macintosh off, and pulled my SD card and started from scratch with a blank file on my Zulu SD, and I did the steps I posted last time.... and PC SETUP doesn't work, so now I have to figure out what tiny thing, if anything I did differently than the first time.... sigh.
With how touchy this setup is, unless I can figure out what is going on soon, I may just go back to playing with 7.6.1. and see if I can get PC Exchange 2.2 and hfs+ to work with the 7.6.1, that and play with Dos Mounter 98 some more (and look for other similar software). I also want to experiment with using drive containers created by SoftPC or SoftWindows, and their tools. But what I really want is something that can deal with FAT32.
 

jeremywork

Well-known member
Since I currently seem to have a single partition on the ZuluSCSI with one working System Folder and one broken one, I pulled the SD and made a copy of the img file before proceeding.

I'll recheck that the System Folder I copied off the IDE still has a functioning PC Setup cp and the System Folder I installed directly to the ZuluSCSI still produces the symptom.

>> Both of these cases are still true. Without the IDE drive present I can soft reboot between the two System Folders to enable/disable the symptom. Now I'll see if I can remedy the broken one...

• Booted from the broken System and installed Open Transport 1.3 since I forgot to do that in the last round. Rebooted.
>> The files seem to be newer already (maybe PC Setup installs them? Replaced anyway despite being older.)
• PC doesn't start. Re-ran PC Setup 1.6.4 installer, replacing the older files. Rebooted.
• PC doesn't start. Re-ran PCSetup2x installer. Rebooted.
• PC doesn't start. Installed my Farallon driver to bring the System Folders to relative parity. Rebooted.
• PC doesn't start.

• Switched back to working System Folder to confirm nothing has broken. PC still starts.
• Returned to the broken version (still broken.)

>> Another clue - when pressing CMD+Return to switch to PC on the broken side, it presents, "A PC Compatible error has occurred. A drive file cannot be opened." I can write a new working Drive file while booted from the System Folder copied from the IDE drive though.

• Replaced just the System file with the one from the working System Folder. This switched the startup folder, so I used System Picker to reboot to the broken folder.
• PC still does not start.
• Replaced just the Finder with the one from the working folder. Again, System Picker to re-select broken.
• PC still does not start.
• Replaced just the MacTCP DNR file from the working folder. Rebooted.
• PC still does not start.
• Moved the Control Panels folder to a temporary folder and copied the one from the working System in its place. Rebooted.
• PC still does not start.
• Ditto the Extensions folder. Rebooted.
• PC Still does not start.
• Ditto the Preferences folder. Rebooted.
• The PC now boots; PC setup now opens.

Now to work backwards I'm going to shut down and restore my prior Zulu image.
 

jeremywork

Well-known member
At the end of last post I archived the working copy of the Zulu image before reverting it.

Back to the same set of two folders I had at the beginning of last post: one from the IDE drive works, other installed directly onto the Zulu doesn't. As at the end of my prior tests, all of the PC Setup files I could find have already been replaced with known working to no avail.

• This time moved the preferences folder in as before but did not restart, PC setup hangs for longer than usual but still did not start. This may have been a mistake, but I wanted to be sure rebooting was necessary. Oh well.
• Rebooted. PC Setup still doesn't start, but now CMD+Return switches the PC on properly.

>> Looks like two separate errors to resolve, or I broke PC Setup in a different way when loading it without rebooting it.


• Removed the Preferences folder again and replaced it with the known working copy. Did not try to open PC setup this time, just rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Installed Open Transport 1.3 again; rebooted. (I regret introducing this variable, but we're here now...)
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced the Preferences folder a third time. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced the Extensions folder as before. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced the Control Panels folder as before. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced the MacTCP DNR folder as before. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced Finder as before. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced System file as before. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Re-ran the PCSetup2x installer and rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.

>> I may have broken something by moving Preferences and not restarting initially, or something. Restoring the Zulu image again.


• Verified the broken one is broken.
• Replaced the Preferences folder as last time; rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return now switches the PC on properly.
• Installed Open Transport 1.3, replacing files anyway. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Re-installed PC Setup 1.6.4, choosing 'older' files. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Re-installed PCsetup2x. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced the Preferences folder a second time; rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.
• Replaced all of the others as previously: Extensions and Control Panels folders, System, Finder, and MacTCP DNR. Rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return still switches the PC on properly.

seems to be incredibly fragile.
No kidding!

Since my last post resulted in success, I'm going to attempt to amend the Zulu image with the first steps redone to continue testing.

• Selected the source folder from System Picker again and rebooted to check my sanity. PC Setup opens; PC starts.
• Shut down. Reverted the ZuluSCSI img file again.
• Started up; tested that the working folder works. Selected the broken one in System Picker; rebooted.
• Tested that the broken folder still cannot start PC Setup and the error about reading the drive file appears when pressing CMD+Return.
• Installed Open Transport 1.3. Rebooted.
• Installed PC Setup 1.6.4. 'Older' files chosen. Rebooted.
• Installed PCsetup2x. Rebooted.
• Verified PC Setup cannot start and PC cannot boot. Shut down and created another archive of the ZuluSCSI image, in case these next steps work.

• Started up and installed the Ethernet driver for my Farallon CS card. Rebooted.
• Replaced all of the System Folder components as I did at the end of my prior post. Reselected with System Picker and rebooted.
PC Setup still doesn't start, but CMD+Return now switches the PC on properly.

>> At this point the only differences between my two tests were not stopping in the middle to re-test the working folder, not stepping through restarts between each of the six System Folder components. Both tests originated from the same .img state and otherwise the steps were performed in the same order.

• Shut down and restored the ZuluSCSI archive from the end of the last post when it was working.
• PC Setup stil lopens and the PC can start. Double checked this is true of both system folders, and it is...
 

jeremywork

Well-known member
I've removed all but the 'repaired' install and an empty 25MB PC drive file on the desktop.

This should at least let PC setup run and boot the PC from a ZuluSCSI. The 8.1 install is complete and OT1.3 is already installed. There'll be an extra Farallon driver in there but should be innocuous. Copying its System Folder to other bootable volumes may also work.


I still don't know what's really going on. Something in the Preferences folder corrects the PC Drive file issue, other than PC Setup Prefs or pcsetup2x.dlx. The PC Setup control panel glitch with the desktop icons disappearing is a different problem. Occasionally, clicking the Apple menu while the icons are still coming back shows only "About this computer..." as it does when just reaching the desktop after startup- is this Finder crashing or something deeper down?

Edit: Finder is definitely relaunching. Holding command+option when starting the broken PC Setup prompts to rebuild the desktop file.
 
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just.in.time

Well-known member
Not sure if you have tried, but have you tried removing the RAM from the PC Card and just share main system memory with it? On my 6100 I have found the PC Card to be very picky about RAM, some sticks would work intermittently. Took a long time to find one that worked reliably.

Also as a point of reference, I’m using a SCSI2SD in mine, formatted with Lido. Granted totally different system, so might impact different on your computer.
 

Chopsticks

Well-known member
not sure if this info is helpful or not but i have a 630DOS myself, i could never get PC Setup running on 8.1 back when i tried it about a year or so ago. i tried 1.64 and 2.17f.

I have an industrial CF card made bny sandisk as my main drive, PC setup has always worked on there with 7.5.5 and 7.6.1.

using the HD image @jeremywork linked above, i put the image on a scuznet, and a bluescsi, booting from either i found PC setup to work and run with no issues noticed.

i then copied the 8.1 system folder from that image onto my CF drive, used system picker, rebooted and PC Setup also worked fine.
The CF card was formatted with drive setup, probably 1.4, or 1.5.

i also copied the system folder to blank image on the scuznet formatted with with SCSI Director Pro 4, and a blank image on the bluscsi formatted with Apple HD SC.

it worked on both


@Realitystorm Ive always used the PowerMac G3 8.1 installer ISO. i have an iMac G3 8.1 install disc too but at least the one ive used wont work install 8.1 on anything other the an imac...
 

Realitystorm

Well-known member
So, played with this again a last night, I downloaded @jeremywork's image and copied the system folder to my IDE drive (CF Card) that I had partitioned using MultiFormater (I was hoping to make a mix of HFS, HFS+ and FAT16 volumes/partitions, found out that isn't a supported option for my IDE drive).

  1. Booted from a working 7.6.1 volume on the IDE drive
  2. Copied @jeremywork 's System 8.1 folder to an empty volume (this was on a ZuluSCSI I used as an external drive)
  3. Selected that new 8.1 volume as the boot volume (using select startup disk)
  4. Rebooted, tried to load PCSETUP, did not did not work, the icons disappeared and then came back.
  5. Selected my 7.6.1 volume as boot, rebooted.
  6. Deleted the copy of the 8.1 folder, and re-copied.
  7. Selected my 8.1 volume again, with the new copy, as the boot, rebooted
  8. Tried to load PCSETUP , this time it worked....
I'm not sure why the first time I copied it didn't work, but the second time it did. All I can think of is the first time I copied all the files from jeremy's image, and the second time I just copied the system folder.

At this point I'm just glad I have a working 8.1 install with PCSETUP 2.1.7f on my IDE drive so I have HFS+ and FAT32 support (with the latest PC Exchange)
 
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