In need of Lisa 2/10 troubleshooting advice

[Professor 362]

Dear members, I have been unable to find any discussions that address my issue specifically, so I am posting my own with fingers crossed.

I have a Lisa 2/10 that powers on (fan noise and illuminated power switch), drive light comes on for a second, and I even have raster (stable non-scrolling white scan lines on a black background) but nothing else... no beeps, nothing. And it cannot be powered down with the button. I have to pull the plug.

I just got this machine and it is a very unusual find. I bought it from the estate of a former apple employee and it was still new in the box, with the original plastic bag and foam inserts. I believe it has never been turned on. Even the plug on the keyboard cable is still in a protective pouch that has not been removed. I was nervous to even try to turn it on, but I did, and that is what I saw.

I have never owned a Lisa before, but I have owned dozens of macs. The only thing I have done is removed the carriage from the rear and made sure all the boards were firmly seated... there is only one memory board. Everything was tight and perfectly clean. No change to my symptoms.

I don't want to tear too deeply into this before asking if there might be some simple things I could check for. Thanks!

 

[nickpunt]

Sounds like a great find, new in box!!

My Lisa 2/10 won't turn off from the power button either, I don't know why. I'm not sure whats up with that, I even got the power supply & video board recapped, as both often need recapping. It's my first Lisa as well so still learning.

Care to share some pictures of the unboxing? Would love to see what a new one out of box looks like.

 

[stepleton]

It doesn't sound to me like there's anything obvious you missed, so I think now we find ourselves at the trailhead of the troubleshooting journey. Usually the first step along the path is power.

The Lisa PSU is a bit like two PSUs in one: there's the main switching PSU alongside a tiny linear PSU that provides standby power. The linear PSU also powers the soft power-on circuit. I wonder if the fact that the power button works but that the computer doesn't do anything means that there's a problem with one of the power rails coming out of the main PSU.

I wonder if there's a clue in the fact that you mentioned "fan noise". Sure, the 2/10 has a (12V I believe) fan in the disk drive cage behind the Widget hard drive. But it also has... a Widget hard drive. And if that were turning, you probably wouldn't have mentioned the fan, because you would not have been able to hear it!

It's been a minute since I've thought much about the Widget mechanism, but there's a chance that it might not spin up the spindle just because it has +12V --- it may need good +5V as well so that the logic can tell the motor to go.

I find myself suspicious of your PSU and wonder if you're getting a good +5V in particular. But anyway: check voltages. One way to do that is to bring the disk drive cage out of the Lisa, unplug the Widget power connector, and check voltages along that connector. You should find +12V and +5V there at least, while the computer is "on" of course. Don't forget that you'll need to defeat the hardware interlock switch under the bottom left of the CRT in order to run the Lisa with the front off. Just wedge something in there.

Finally, note that your Lisa PSU will have RIFA safety capacitors, and they are probably going to pop and stink up your room if they're not replaced before too long. This can happen anytime your Lisa is plugged in, even if the computer is off.

 

[pl212]

Can I ask if the Lisa immediately powers on, without you pressing the button, when it's connected to AC power? Mine was doing this and it came down to a broken power switch (a Honeywell part you can still order) which was triggering the high-voltage improperly (and eventually leading to a "52 I/O Board Error". Just something to check if your symptoms are similar.

 

[Brooklyn]

Slide out the card cage and reseat all of the cards and try again. Lisa is soft power on/off, not surprising it won’t power off if the computer never initializes.

 

[Professor 362]

Can I ask if the Lisa immediately powers on, without you pressing the button, when it's connected to AC power? Mine was doing this and it came down to a broken power switch (a Honeywell part you can still order) which was triggering the high-voltage improperly (and eventually leading to a "52 I/O Board Error". Just something to check if your symptoms are similar.

Thanks for asking! Before I posted my question, I scoured the archives for similar issues and saw a few people talking about the issue you have... perhaps you were one of them. However, I do not have that issue. When I plug this in, nothing happens UNTIL I hit the power button, at which time I hear immediate fan (and possibly drive) spin up, illuminated power button, and get raster on the monitor... (visible scan lines when I turn up brightness).

Good luck with your issue! As far as my problem, I think I am going to leave it alone. Stapleton responded with information about the possible risk (maybe even probable risk) of blowing power supply capacitors and making a big mess. This is machine has some historical significance and I do not have the skills it deserves.

 

[Professor 362]

Sounds like a great find, new in box!!

My Lisa 2/10 won't turn off from the power button either, I don't know why. I'm not sure whats up with that, I even got the power supply & video board recapped, as both often need recapping. It's my first Lisa as well so still learning.

Care to share some pictures of the unboxing? Would love to see what a new one out of box looks like.

Thanks for the reply. Troubleshooting further is probably above my pay grade. I have never had a Lisa before. I wish you luck with your projects(s)!! Here are a few pictures...

 

[Professor 362]

Slide out the card cage and reseat all of the cards and try again. Lisa is soft power on/off, not surprising it won’t power off if the computer never initializes.

Thanks for your reply, Brooklyn. I tried that to no avail. But I agree, and am inclined to believe this is something simple. The machine is brand new and everything inside is pristine... but it has sat for over 40 years, so anything can happen! Here are a couple inside pics...

 

[Professor 362]

It doesn't sound to me like there's anything obvious you missed, so I think now we find ourselves at the trailhead of the troubleshooting journey. Usually the first step along the path is power.

The Lisa PSU is a bit like two PSUs in one: there's the main switching PSU alongside a tiny linear PSU that provides standby power. The linear PSU also powers the soft power-on circuit. I wonder if the fact that the power button works but that the computer doesn't do anything means that there's a problem with one of the power rails coming out of the main PSU.

I wonder if there's a clue in the fact that you mentioned "fan noise". Sure, the 2/10 has a (12V I believe) fan in the disk drive cage behind the Widget hard drive. But it also has... a Widget hard drive. And if that were turning, you probably wouldn't have mentioned the fan, because you would not have been able to hear it!

It's been a minute since I've thought much about the Widget mechanism, but there's a chance that it might not spin up the spindle just because it has +12V --- it may need good +5V as well so that the logic can tell the motor to go.

I find myself suspicious of your PSU and wonder if you're getting a good +5V in particular. But anyway: check voltages. One way to do that is to bring the disk drive cage out of the Lisa, unplug the Widget power connector, and check voltages along that connector. You should find +12V and +5V there at least, while the computer is "on" of course. Don't forget that you'll need to defeat the hardware interlock switch under the bottom left of the CRT in order to run the Lisa with the front off. Just wedge something in there.

Finally, note that your Lisa PSU will have RIFA safety capacitors, and they are probably going to pop and stink up your room if they're not replaced before too long. This can happen anytime your Lisa is plugged in, even if the computer is off.

Dear Stapleton, I am humbled by the investment of time and thought that went into your response. I feel confident that your suggestions are sound and well advised... plus they just make perfect sense. But I take pause on the basis of your capacitor warning. I expect that I will just be selling this machine, along with several other rather remarkable pieces of 80's and 90's Apple history. I suspect there are precious few machines left in this condition, and it would be tragic if I exploded something internally or just compromised it through my own inexperience. Had I known before, I would not even have risked plugging it in! But thanks so much for your time and thoughtful response!

 

[stepleton]

Don't worry too much about the risk you took with the RIFAs! They make a big stink and a goodly amount of smoke, but usually they don't cause much in the way of irreversible damage. The computer will even continue to run after they've gone "pop". Still, it's much better to replace them before they do that.

 

[adespoton]

I'd like to also mention that there's always the risk of leaky capacitors in the Lisa 2, and that risk exists even with the machine unplugged. To properly preserve it, all the capacitors should really be replaced (or at least labeled and removed).

There's a good thread flagging all the capacitors in the 2/10 here: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/lisa-2-mac-xl-capacitor-reference-for-psu-video-board.37903/

 

[Professor 362]

I'd like to also mention that there's always the risk of leaky capacitors in the Lisa 2, and that risk exists even with the machine unplugged. To properly preserve it, all the capacitors should really be replaced (or at least labeled and removed).

There's a good thread flagging all the capacitors in the 2/10 here: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/lisa-2-mac-xl-capacitor-reference-for-psu-video-board.37903/

Thanks so much for the advice. I was not aware that the risk persisted even after unplugging from power!

 

[stepleton]

To properly preserve it, all the capacitors should really be replaced (or at least labeled and removed).

Well... opinions do differ on this, sometimes to the point of bitter disagreement. I don't share this opinion, personally --- or to be more precise, for me it depends on your plans. More in a second:

There's a good thread flagging all the capacitors in the 2/10 here

I think that's just the PSU and the video board though. The logic boards, Widget, and floppy drive will have electrolytic caps as well.

I replaced almost all the capacitors in my Lisas back in the day when I had a mind to do that kind of thing. If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I might not be quite so zealous about it. Some of them are probably fine, while others may be a bit worse for wear (particularly smaller radial caps like C4 on the video board, caps near hot components like C2 or C31 on the video board, or caps that are both like C18 on the video board).

If I had a plan to store the Lisa for, say, two years without using it and then to sell it on: I'd probably leave it alone.

Yes, some of the electrolytic capacitors will be dried out, leaking their liquid electrolyte (which is indeed mildly corrosive!), or no longer in spec, and those should be replaced as part of the project of getting the machine back to a working condition (presumably that's the buyer's problem, and anyone who buys a 41-year-old non-working computer should already appreciate that this will basically be necessary). My experience with the capacitors of this era in general, and of the Lisa in particular, is that few will be leaking so badly that they pose a serious threat to the circuit boards that carry them or to nearby components. This stands in contrast to newer machines, where the capacitors are much more poorly sealed and where circuit traces and components are much finer and therefore more vulnerable to being harmed by the electrolyte.

(If you have a NeXT grayscale MegaPixel display circa 1990, for example: those 10000 uF ELNA "Long Life" caps inside will be quite soggy by now! And that's in addition to all the 47 uF SMT caps everywhere, which will be making everything around them furry and green.)

If I were really worried about it, I would carry out a thorough visual inspection of the circuit boards to try and spot corrosion or leaking. I would take small strips of paper and slide them under the capacitors to see if any fluid was collecting there: if so, sure, pull the leaky caps. I would leave the rest be.

Now, if my plan were to keep the Lisa in storage for 20 years: then I'd probably think more about pulling the caps as a precaution.

 

[Joopmac]

Wow, extremely nice find =) Boxed!

 

[MaCJaX]

I would replace the ROMs. I had same issue with my Lisa and it turned out to be a bad ROM.