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IIsi Dual PDS Riser

Melkhior

Well-known member
@nottomhanks Thanks, very nice pictures! Very nicely routed design, very efficient use of the two outer layers to be able to route to the FPU with minimum use of via; I can only see 8 vias for A1-A4 (4 below the FPU, 4 underneath it) which are going bottom-top-bottom layers. Everything else seem to be routed on a single layer only. I'm assuming they have two internal layers for power planes, as +5V and GND are not visibly connected to anything (quite noticeably for the capacitors). Not sure shy they felt they needed a couple of capacitors on the opposite side of the FPU - if it was for the FPU, still plenty of space closer to it, above it in the area of C1 and C2.

Some interesting details about the routing Looking at the third picture (2446), the connections between the two PDS slots, closest to the FPU. The three thicker lines are power connections for +12V/-5V/-12V. Just above them, connecting the third rows (or rotated columns) of three pins, the routing is different from all the others signals despite the connection pattern being the same. The signal are longer and less close to one another (the 2nd and 4th rows as GND and +5V so connected to internal layers, leaving some available space). Those three are clocks (cpuclk, viaclk, and c16m). Not sure why they felt they needed the breathing room at the expense of length. Strangely, I can only see two connections from that area in the first picture between the motherboard-side connector and the middle PDS!

And it seems /RBV (A1 on the mobo connector) is also connected between the two PDS despite being a 'reserved' pin in those - most other 'reserved' signals aren't. And it doesn't seem to be connected to the mobo connector either, only two traces near those pins which are probably /NUBUS and /PWR (both specified in both the PDS and mobo connector).

Not sure how useful those are in the modern era (finding two useful and compatible PDS cards is going to be difficult...), but with such detailed views of the routing they should be reasonably easy to replicate. Approximate measurement on the pictures says the two PDS connectors are roughly 24.13mm / 0.95in from one another? All parts are still available from Mouser, including the PLCC socket. Might be harder to recreate the routing to use a PGA socket instead as it's quite tight in there.
 

nottomhanks

Well-known member
Glad you like them! I should add that the card did work with that weird B&W video card, I think I tried it in both slots and it worked.

I also installed the PDS to Nubus adapter (with metal bracket) with a full sized Rasterops 24Mx. It worked as well, but the card is so large, it barely fits in the case.

The built in video has every second line off, as it needs recapping, (a few resistors fell off as well so it needs a bit of work.

It came with the Apple Performa Display (680X480) and a bunch of Cds, software etc.
 

mg.man

Well-known member
I'd LOVE to see detailed pics of that adapter card! The only example I've seen is a crazy/kluge NuBus/Accelerator adapter with the IIci cache conversion section being a second PCB mounted on a standard Apple type NuBus adapter. NuBus/PDS Adapter would be something I don't think I've never seen.
Not the one you're after, but I have one like this :
20230402_162407.jpg
 

Melkhior

Well-known member
Not the one you're after, but I have one like this :
I feel the pain of the guy who did that PCB... had to route all those signals oh so carefully to deal with those resistor packs, with the interlacing of signals to make them all fit... And then the resistor packs are not mounted on the PCB! Ouch.
Apple says termination resistors are necessary in DCDMF3, but turns out no third-party bothered to put them on the PCB... From photos I've seen, they are on Apple's adapter though.
 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
I've seen pics of the SIP resistors installed in sockets and pics of the card with sockets installed on the cards w/o the packs.

I have a couple of the SuperMac variety above. One came with a high resolution SuperMac VidCard installed. The adapter appears to have been designed such that any future expansion card the may have required termination would nave been shipped with a terminated adapter.

In the case of my card, it's compatible with the SE/30, so it's buffered as closely as possible to the PDS connector per DCaDftMF spec. Might additional trace length between PDS and and RA passthru on the IIsi adapter be an explanation for that termination spec?


edit: coolest thing about that particular adapter is the hravy duty bolt on backplane bracket that requires no top plate to support that max spec SE/30 PDS card.
 

nottomhanks

Well-known member
I haven’t tried the dual PDS card in my SE/30, it would be cool if it worked. Might have to remove the floppy to do that though..
 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Might work, but major modification required:

SuperMac-IIsi-RA-Adapter-00.jpg

Did "wrong angle" modification and cut one of my SuperMac adapters down to fit in the SE/30 chassis for NuBus Adapter experiments:

SuperMac-IIsi_NuBus-Cards.1.jpg

No point in trying that with a Twinslot Adapter as it's a passive card, easily replicated if termination resistor packs are deleted as in this mystery card in the OP.

Siimplified-IIsi-DualSlot-Adapter-00.jpeg

A customized SE/30 form factor Board could have all three available slot addresses implemented if pointing the top slot straight up. @Bolle has experimented with multiple cards getting mixed results, IIRC? A bit OT here maybe, but definitely worth playing with in a dedicated thread?


edit: FPU socket complications unnecessary as it's present on the SE/30's logic board.
 

Melkhior

Well-known member
A customized SE/30 form factor Board could have all three available slot addresses implemented if pointing the top slot straight up. @Bolle has experimented with multiple cards getting mixed results, IIRC? A bit OT here maybe, but definitely worth playing with in a dedicated thread?
Probably should go in its own thread, but here we are...
If for three slots you mean PDS, hardware-wise it's purely an analog (signal integrity) and mechanical/thermal problem, designing the board would be fairly easy, everything is just pass-through. But then every board is likely to use pseudoslot $9, the only one for which an interrupt is generally supported (the other two are not supported on the IIsi, only the SE/30), so software-wise it's a lot more tricky unless using a board for the SE/30 using $A or $B. The Cache+PDS of some Daystar adapter makes more sense, as it skips that problem entirely. I might actually do my own IIsi PDS adapter as that's reasonably well documented and I need one to add a FPU anyway. Don't think I'll bother with the second slot - those big DIN41612 connectors are by far the most expensive and complex bit to acquire/assemble in the adapter.
If for three slots you mean NuBus, then there's the issue of the NuBus controller (in addition to the mechanical/thermal) Some bits are there already, as I have some support for NuBus in a FPGA. Support for the '030 bus is not quite there yet, but seems within reach. It's possible a XC95144XL could be made to emulate the NuChip, controlling eight 74ABT651 (as replacement for the 74ALS651) buffers/transceivers and a pair of 74ALS240, similar to the IIcx, and would be much easier to deal with than a full-fledged FPGA. Whether there's any point to it is questionable; at this stage, it looks easier to implement whichever device(s) you'd want in your SE/30 in a PDS card directly, which would also make devices faster. Framebuffer is definitely within reach, other devices are mostly a software issue at this stage (i.e. writing a driver talking to a 'modern' Fast Ethernet MAC+RMII or SMII PHY is a lot more complex that actually implementing said MAC/PHY combo...)
 

Melkhior

Well-known member
I have managed to run three cards, MacCon, Radius Pivot IIsi and the Micron XCEED simultaneously.
Interesting. Did the card(s) have some physical mechanism (switch, jumper, ...) to select the slot space to use? NuBus does it via the ID line, but AFAICT there's not such mechanism built in the PDS slot. Luck could have them use disjoint addresses, but the two video cards might/should have issue with the shared interrupt...
 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Probably should go in its own thread, but here we are...
Absolutely, I'll start a new one after I play a bit with pencil and paper.

Every IIsi card I've seen has jumpers for utilizing at least two of the three available interrupts. A tall SE/30 card for the proposed top slot might be set up for only a single interrupt, but provision could be made on the adapter could be set up for interrupt selection jumpers on the adapter itself.

Not thinking about NuBus in SE/30 ATM, that'd go in the Project 30 series.
 

Melkhior

Well-known member
Every IIsi card I've seen has jumpers for utilizing at least two of the three available interrupts.
I never knew that, it's good news. I've never actually seen a PDS card in the flesh, as far as I can remember - Macintoshes were run in much more standard configuration over here vs. in the U.S., only NuBus video card & NuBus Ethernet were somewhat 'common' in the II era.
With such cards the SW for PDS is much easier to handle, things should work out of the box. Soldering correctly the (1+X)*120 pins for the X slots would still represent quite a bit of work :)
 

nottomhanks

Well-known member
The Micron card is hard set to $09 the Radius and MacCon can be changed to $0A and $0B so to not conflict with $0E (built in video). It would be super cool if $0E could be dedicated to another card instead somehow.
 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
It would be super cool if $0E could be dedicated to another card instead somehow.
Off into the SE/30 woods again here? Pull the Video ROM and onboard video drops off the Slot Manager's radar. Some have said that ther might still be information sent to registers that would interfere with jumpering $E to a PDS adapter/card, but that makes no sense at all from my read on things.

PDS is likely hard pressed in a three card config. Doubt it would work without additional buffering which may or may not affect timings? IIRC, PDS in IIsi and SE/30 is spec'd as running only a couple of TTL inputs, maybe three?

Almost on topic: my very long running SuperIIsi hack involves replacing the standard PDS connector with a wire wrap connector The SuperMac adapter soldered parallel to the mobo on the underside with NIC and Color Pivot card installed there. NuBus adapter topside with Rocket. A fourth card jumpered to $E would be very cool if possible.

On topic: that NuBus/PDS combo card upthread is a dream of mine. Been playing with notions for that for quite some time. Pinning a daughtercard to the backside for thSMT components pointed at the sidewall of the case. NuBus adaptation would free up the center section of the adapter for a PDS Slot. The daughtercard would fit within a cutout in the metal bracket, .
 
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tvj

Member
This "IIsi Dual Slot Adapter" riser was part of the Logica LogiCache IIsi package. Please understand we don't place the IIsi LogiCache PDS card into a IIci cache slot.

Logica LogiCache IIsi.jpg

Logica Advertising.jpg
 

zefrenchtoon

Well-known member
Might work, but major modification required:

View attachment 54904

Did "wrong angle" modification and cut one of my SuperMac adapters down to fit in the SE/30 chassis for NuBus Adapter experiments:
Hi!
This auction made me think about your post ...


Especially this picture (what is "SECONDARY SI" and why is it not populated ?) :
i-img398x600-1683239723c6pspl252442.jpg
 

Trash80toHP_Mini

NIGHT STALKER
Wow! Thanks much, I'd never looked at that adapter from the IIsi standpoint.

Daystar-low-profile-PaowerCache adapter.jpg

Replace the RA connector on top and install another the lower thruholes and looks to be a PowerCache/PDS compatible with the IIsi. Doing the reverse I mentioned upthread I think. That'd put the Accelerator in the bottom slot with room for a max spec SE/30 VidCard topside. New project in the works. 56 weeks until retirement and back to the HackLab! 🤪
 
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