G3 addon no boot in 6360 with display port empty?

[Ncc74656]

the setup: 6360 (128mb ram), Radeon 9200, SSD with IDE adapter, dual partition with Mac os 8.1/9.0.4, interware G3 240Mhz L2 card.

the driver disk and files have odd language labels. i am unsure if corrupted or just wrong langage.
when i boot the system in 8.1 or 9.0.4 it gets to loading mac os and hard locks - mouse froze on corner.

however: if i boot in 8.1 with no Radeon drivers (i dont think there are any for this OS) and keep the display plugged into the onboard, it will boot and recognize the G3 card. it will also display a bare desktop out of the Radeon.

id like the 9200 and G3 working in os 9. any thoughts on my next step?

 

[Byrd]

Cool lizard! Try CPU Director under OS 9, it tends to work with a wide range of accelerators, or Newertech L2 G3 software might be a good match too over the (Japanese) Interware product

 

[Ncc74656]

hmmm, ok. ill look into that

 

[Ncc74656]

i suspect there is a hardware IRQ conflict. i can get the radeon to install and function in 9.0.4, i can get the G3 running with newer extensions under 9.0.4. so long as i keep a dongle or monitor plugged into the onboard video, im fine. the radeon drivers will load and the radeon displays a dummy desktop (cant use it for anything). system profiler can not ID the radeon either.

when i plug directly into the radeon is when things crash.

when the G3 extension is loading (it loads first) it will reboot the system (i assume this is normal?). the same time this tries to reboot is the time that the radeon will flash the desktop and change resolution. (when the G3 card is not there). so im assuming both cards are trying to 'activate' at the same time and crashing each other out.

im not sure how to fix this

 

[Byrd]

There really aren't IRQs in vintage Macs, you've hit a driver issue or hardware compatibility. I think I posted in your Reddit thread about how your Radeon 9200 isn't the best match for an older (early) PCI Mac, as it needs a later OS and drivers. The Radeon 9200 ideally needs Mac OS 9.2.1+ for the drivers, which you can install using OS 9 Helper utility.

I'd be doing the driver shuffle - try to disable any drivers for the (onboard) video, and reintroduce extensions one at a time for the 9200. Try to find the oldest drivers you can for the card.

 

[Ncc74656]

So that's what I've been doing but to me it doesn't feel like a driver issue. The reason I say that is that I can remove all of the extensions and only use the G3 add-on card extension, if I boot with a monitor plugged into the video card it hard locks.

If I remove the G3 card and boot with a monitor plugged into the video card without any drivers, it boots just fine.

Even though this is a G3, I can't seem to get Mac OS 9.2 to install. I'm going to try a couple of things but I'm not there yet.

I have an offer in on eBay for a rage 128 and maybe I'll try that

 

[Byrd]

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Is your friend. Can you boot with the shift key held down? It almost sounds like a power issue as well - with both G3 and (relatively high powered) graphics card running, your PSU might be marginal, you might need to drag out a multimeter and test voltages (somewhere around the optical drive, hard disk).

 

[Ncc74656]

yea, ive got a 4 channel scope i can throw on it. also have a few PC psu's lying around i may try out. i was thinking power issue as well but it kinda threw me that it will boot just fine with both devices in there. its only when one tries to load first that it konks out.

when i have time tomorrow or such ill try taking some measurements

 

[sixteenbitify]

Just want to chime in that the Radeon 9200 drivers are only compatible with Mac OS 9.2.1 and 9.2.2. I had a Power Macintosh 9600 with a G4 card and a Radeon 9200 and I was able to get both configurations running from 7.5.5 to 9.2.2. 9.1 and below had no 9200 drivers, so there was missing graphics acceleration.

For such a system like yours, I would go with a Radeon 7000 since that one has full driver support from 7.6.1 and you shouldn’t get any freezing issues with your system.

Anyway, OS 9 helper should allow you to boot to 9.2.1/9.2.2. Hopefully you get better luck booting up to that version.

 

[Ncc74656]

I ordered a rage 128, for the life of me I cannot find a PCI version of the Radeon 7000

 

[Byrd]

Although they sound like they are miles apart, the Rage 128 and Mac Radeon 7000 aren't that different in performance - the 128 will be a good match for your 6360 for basic 3D gaming, with proper driver support. Most dirt cheap PC PCI Radeon 7000s can be flashed over to Mac, however they were low end cards and usually quite cheap in construction so best get the official models.

 

[Ncc74656]

Maybe I'll pick up a PC one then and play around with it. The interesting thing is that the drivers on the CD worked in Macos 9.0.4 for DivX decoding and impact decoding when I copied video files onto the computer.

The video card also tripled my frames per second in Doom ii and made escape velocity Nova run smoother

 

[Byrd]

Yeah, I think find a "nice looking" full profile (not half size) PC Radeon 7000 and try your luck one day - there are various ROM sizes for different cards.

 

[Ncc74656]

im going to do some googling on this.
i just checked ebay and see no fewer than 5 different full sized cards. PCB color differences, heat sinks, memory configuration....

do you have any insight on best chance of compatibility or a forum link for whats been tried in the past?

edit: i found this: http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/ati7k.html
i have hot air soldering stations at home so im going to order a chip form digikey and this card off ebay right now. maybe next week ill give this a go

 

[Byrd]

Mate I'd wait for the Rage 128 first and see how it goes.

 

[Ncc74656]

well, i cant pass up the chance ot mod a video card. that sounds like fun

 

[Byrd]

Yes, but with more research you'll see there are reduced size ROMs without needing to solder things.

 

[Ncc74656]

i saw there is a edited rom but it said the draw back was hte card only worked AFTER drivers were loaded. that sounds like a poor trade off.
ill dig into it a bit more but the 7000 looks to be twice the card of a rage 128 so, might be a good option.

im also going to try os 9 helper and get 9.2.1 installed. that MAY solve some things for me, we will see.

i also have a spare PSU im going to hook in (made a new molex plug today) and test if maybe this little guy is not strong enough.

 

[Ncc74656]

i REALLY want the 9200 i got to work. its a sweet card. we will see how far i get. i just put an offer in on a 7000 (25.00 on the bay)

edit: just won the auction. the chip listed on the write up is out of production. i found a couple alternatives but both have higher minimum voltages. so i think im going to ebay an old stock rom chip and a new, modern one off digikey (like 3.00 in parts) and flash both of them on the card, test what works. then ill report back

edit2: it occurs to me that i do not own a computer with PCI so ill either have to find one to borrow or pickup a usb-serial and flash these rom chips via telnet... i dont think i can flash it on the mac

 

[Ncc74656]

i have discovered some things. turns out you guys were right about a extension issue, i didnt believe it because of how it was acting BUT i have confirmed that using an older OS with a Rage 128 produces the exact same hard lock during startup. with proper drivers for that card it boots with the G3 card. im trying to get os 9.2 to install but having issues.

i did this write up and test: https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageApple/comments/u5w24t
found that the 9200 did function but was not anywhere near full potential and also that the rage 128 can boost the factory display output even when no display is plugged into the expansion video card.