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Fun with colour on my SE/30
- Thread starter ants
- Start date
I hope this project gets picked up by someone else, while I love the CRTs in these compacts, its also so cool to see one running a colour display and this is so much better than just sticking an iPad into a compact enclosure. Good luck to whoever continues this, I'm eager to see it progress! :rambo:
DeChief
Active member
Ah damn, sorry to hear you're not continuing :`( it makes sense though, you're right about the black and white screen being part of its personality and appeal - but to me the SE/30 would be the ultimate compact mac if it had colour capabilities, so I'm going to press on! 
The CC and CC2 are awesome (especially Mystic modded), but there's something lacking in their general case design. I've always liked square edges I guess.
Should I make another thread or keep posting here? Either way, @ArmorAlley sent me a Lapis ColorServer PDS/30-17 and I just got it working with a driver from the net:
Unfortunately it appears to be outputting a sync-on-green signal which isn't supported by any of my monitors, except for this huge old Hitachi LCD TV. I'm hoping the 9" colour SVGA CRT I've got coming (should be here before mid October) can support SOG but doubt it will. In which case I'll have to fork out some dough for a sync converter.
Another issue is the tube length. I'm 99% sure it won't fit inside the SE/30's case, but I have a spare semi-crappy SE bucket that I'm happy to cut into for the sake of science.
Failing that, I'd like to buy one of your resin casts @ants, or attempt to make my own if you've gotten rid of that pressure chamber you made.
The CC and CC2 are awesome (especially Mystic modded), but there's something lacking in their general case design. I've always liked square edges I guess.Should I make another thread or keep posting here? Either way, @ArmorAlley sent me a Lapis ColorServer PDS/30-17 and I just got it working with a driver from the net:
Unfortunately it appears to be outputting a sync-on-green signal which isn't supported by any of my monitors, except for this huge old Hitachi LCD TV. I'm hoping the 9" colour SVGA CRT I've got coming (should be here before mid October) can support SOG but doubt it will. In which case I'll have to fork out some dough for a sync converter.
Another issue is the tube length. I'm 99% sure it won't fit inside the SE/30's case, but I have a spare semi-crappy SE bucket that I'm happy to cut into for the sake of science.
Failing that, I'd like to buy one of your resin casts @ants, or attempt to make my own if you've gotten rid of that pressure chamber you made.
DeChief
Active member
I really hate it when people replace CRTs with LCDs in situations where it's completely avoidable, especially in things like arcade machines. In this instance though, it would be in service of enabling a Mac to do something it normally can't, so I'm fine with it. That being said, the 9" CRT has priority and I've just purchased a cheapo sync converter that should do the trick.
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pcamen
Well-known member
I have a standup MAME cabinet that had a HUGE Sony TV as the arcade monitor. I recently replaced it with a Dell LCD. For games, the Sony TV was sort of ok, but for everything else, like when I actually had to boot into Windows, or using choosing games from the list, the TV was so blurry, it was a major PITA just to use the thing. The LCD is so much more crisp, and I can run it at a higher resolution, which is helpful.
And I sure won't miss pulling that super heavy TV in and out; I've moved that cabinet like 10 times, including to a third floor walkup in San Francisco.
pcamen
Well-known member
Actually the MAME setup in an arcade cabinet makes a lot of sense. It really feels like the real thing, albeit with 4,000 games. My system has 4 position custom arcade controls, so it does a good job replicating the original experience.
But I digress. My point is that I think the choice is not necessarily black and white. Given that I have 8 SE/30's, I'd probably opt to replace one of the CRTs with an LCD just to have something cool and different. I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just like we are all in this hobby for different reasons, we all have different level of appreciations for authenticity vs usability. I have quite a few Apple and Radius CRTs and what not, but more and more I see them as just one more things to fix, so I am often using LCDs with my Macs.
Just all a personal preference really.
But I digress. My point is that I think the choice is not necessarily black and white. Given that I have 8 SE/30's, I'd probably opt to replace one of the CRTs with an LCD just to have something cool and different. I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just like we are all in this hobby for different reasons, we all have different level of appreciations for authenticity vs usability. I have quite a few Apple and Radius CRTs and what not, but more and more I see them as just one more things to fix, so I am often using LCDs with my Macs.
Just all a personal preference really.
DeChief
Active member
I owned a 2 player (sticks and 6 buttons on each side) 300~ game multicade cab at one point that even had a proper 21" CRT, but it never felt like a good purchase. It went into storage when I moved countries and I sold it the moment I moved back. IMO you lose something valuable when you start emulating things and using modern components in these situations, so I try to use as much old tech with old tech as I can - but yes, that might just be me! What you're doing is fine, it simply feels counter to the hobby as a whole for me, which I'm guessing is because I'm likely younger than the majority of users here.
For instance, I'm getting rid of my SCSI2SD after getting a good deal on one of those Adtron SDDS SCSI-PCMCIA devices since it works flawlessly with a PCMCIA-CF adapter in it, all of which is old technology and essentially of the same era as the machines I use it with. I found a cheap external SyQuest EZ135 SCSI drive and sold the SyQuest itself just to use the enclosure for the Adtron, it's really convenient for vintage Macs since I can just pre-load a bunch of CF cards with different operating systems - turns out Yahoo Auctions has great deals on used generic 256 - 500MB CF cards so I've stocked up and am now prepared for any Mac I buy in future.
Getting semi-back on topic, I very much dislike using LCDs with old systems. There was a noticeable amount of input lag when I was testing the Lapis ColorServer, moving the mouse felt like wading through molasses on the 3 LCDs I used for testing compared to the SE/30's internal CRT. I'm not sure how different this would be compared to the LCD that ants was using, but either way, CRT still takes priority. I do have a black and white Radius Pivot SE/30 card if you'd like to swap one of your SE/30's screens to an LCD.
For instance, I'm getting rid of my SCSI2SD after getting a good deal on one of those Adtron SDDS SCSI-PCMCIA devices since it works flawlessly with a PCMCIA-CF adapter in it, all of which is old technology and essentially of the same era as the machines I use it with. I found a cheap external SyQuest EZ135 SCSI drive and sold the SyQuest itself just to use the enclosure for the Adtron, it's really convenient for vintage Macs since I can just pre-load a bunch of CF cards with different operating systems - turns out Yahoo Auctions has great deals on used generic 256 - 500MB CF cards so I've stocked up and am now prepared for any Mac I buy in future.
Getting semi-back on topic, I very much dislike using LCDs with old systems. There was a noticeable amount of input lag when I was testing the Lapis ColorServer, moving the mouse felt like wading through molasses on the 3 LCDs I used for testing compared to the SE/30's internal CRT. I'm not sure how different this would be compared to the LCD that ants was using, but either way, CRT still takes priority. I do have a black and white Radius Pivot SE/30 card if you'd like to swap one of your SE/30's screens to an LCD.
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DeChief
Active member
Alright, finally some progress!
Success! No green tint on a sync-on-green incompatible monitor. How did I do it?
Well I was talking to a friend about sync-on-green and he recommended that I try to find a cheap, used "7053 sync separator", which is a little blue device that takes SoG and splits the sync into Horizontal and Vertical sync for non-SoG VGA monitors (requires its own 6V DC PSU). I found them on some weird website for over $100 USD but they're also on eBay for much less (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Software-Integrators-7053-sync-separator-converts-sync-on-green-to-separate-sync/222768549276?hash=item33de0a4d9c:g:V78AAOSwy0JaQCO3&frcectupt=true), so I bought one.
At first the green tint was still there when trying it with all the DB-15 to VGA adapters that I owned, which was a huge bummer. So I gave up for a while and worked on other projects. Then while browsing Yahoo Auctions one night, I came across an adapter by UnimacFly that specifically mention sync-on-green in its dip switch diagram, and bought it. I tested it just then and it works great, here's what's sticking out of the back of the SE/30:
I've tested this setup with multiple SoG-incompatible monitors and they all work perfectly fine, so the chances of this working with the incoming 9" colour SVGA CRT are high. Speaking of which... it's not here yet because the guy I bought it through (the original seller didn't offer international shipping) has been too busy lately to ship it.
Success! No green tint on a sync-on-green incompatible monitor. How did I do it?
Well I was talking to a friend about sync-on-green and he recommended that I try to find a cheap, used "7053 sync separator", which is a little blue device that takes SoG and splits the sync into Horizontal and Vertical sync for non-SoG VGA monitors (requires its own 6V DC PSU). I found them on some weird website for over $100 USD but they're also on eBay for much less (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Software-Integrators-7053-sync-separator-converts-sync-on-green-to-separate-sync/222768549276?hash=item33de0a4d9c:g:V78AAOSwy0JaQCO3&frcectupt=true), so I bought one.
At first the green tint was still there when trying it with all the DB-15 to VGA adapters that I owned, which was a huge bummer. So I gave up for a while and worked on other projects. Then while browsing Yahoo Auctions one night, I came across an adapter by UnimacFly that specifically mention sync-on-green in its dip switch diagram, and bought it. I tested it just then and it works great, here's what's sticking out of the back of the SE/30:
I've tested this setup with multiple SoG-incompatible monitors and they all work perfectly fine, so the chances of this working with the incoming 9" colour SVGA CRT are high. Speaking of which... it's not here yet because the guy I bought it through (the original seller didn't offer international shipping) has been too busy lately to ship it.
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DeChief
Active member
Okay, an addendum to my response: with just the UniMacfly on the CRT in the above photos, it looks fine! But when I try it with the 2 LCDs I have in this room, it has the green tint. I've tried adjusting all of the brightness, contrast, colour temp, etc. settings and it's still there. The only way to make it look normal on those LCDs is with the 7053.
I'll try just the UniMacfly with another CRT later today and see what happens, it's possible this monitor is anomalous since it's actually a 15/31KHz switching one that was originally sold for Acorn computers (made by Microvitech).
I'll try just the UniMacfly with another CRT later today and see what happens, it's possible this monitor is anomalous since it's actually a 15/31KHz switching one that was originally sold for Acorn computers (made by Microvitech).
Any chance you could make a similar resin surface for the Color Classic's tube? I'm thinking of making a more dedicated controller board for the TFT if there is interest.
I noticed that the 8.4" screen chosen was one with an LVDS interface. The same company that makes that screen(Looks like Tianma may have purchased NEC's industrial TFT division?) has the same panels with a TTL interface, which is the more traditional RGB+HVC parallel interface. Those "everything-in-one" controller boards usually have both outputs present, but I'l like to make a more dedicated controller board that doesn't have a ton of unused connectors or need the OSD menu + buttons to work properly.
Actually, I believe for the Color Classic, I can create a whole new analog board + TFT display swap kit. The new analog board would have the TFT driver and backlight, the digital power supplies for the logic board, should be able to handle the "soft" brightness and contrast controls, and maybe even be able to do stereo audio(at least with a LC/Perf 5xx series logic board installed). I was all about 10.4" displays, except those require hacking the bezel and the end result would just not "feel" like a CC anymore. I did some measurements, and the actual viewable image size of the CC's Trinitron is actually very close to the 8.4" actual of the Tianma/NEC panel. Of course some bezel or filler would still be required. I really like the idea of the molded resin which may even be easier with the cylindrical Trinny than with the Spherical CRT of the SE/30.
The only other sticking point is the AC inlet. In order to not make something that less careful people might by chance electrocute themselves with, I'd probably have to convert the power input to a brick or wall-wart; Yuk! Still, there are some very capable slim and compact 12-18V AC/DC wall supplies which could do the job since a lot of the power used by these machines is in the CRT monitor. Also, the total unit weight would be cut by about a third(estimated).
I already ordered a parallel interface version of the 8.4" panel and plan to make a prototype "VGA Monitor" to prove it can work. Any interest out there in me turning this into a replacement CC analog board? I had actually had an idea to make a new rear housing for the CC to repackage it into a slim, flat panel machine, but for now I'll start with the monitor.
Actually, I believe for the Color Classic, I can create a whole new analog board + TFT display swap kit. The new analog board would have the TFT driver and backlight, the digital power supplies for the logic board, should be able to handle the "soft" brightness and contrast controls, and maybe even be able to do stereo audio(at least with a LC/Perf 5xx series logic board installed). I was all about 10.4" displays, except those require hacking the bezel and the end result would just not "feel" like a CC anymore. I did some measurements, and the actual viewable image size of the CC's Trinitron is actually very close to the 8.4" actual of the Tianma/NEC panel. Of course some bezel or filler would still be required. I really like the idea of the molded resin which may even be easier with the cylindrical Trinny than with the Spherical CRT of the SE/30.
The only other sticking point is the AC inlet. In order to not make something that less careful people might by chance electrocute themselves with, I'd probably have to convert the power input to a brick or wall-wart; Yuk! Still, there are some very capable slim and compact 12-18V AC/DC wall supplies which could do the job since a lot of the power used by these machines is in the CRT monitor. Also, the total unit weight would be cut by about a third(estimated).
I already ordered a parallel interface version of the 8.4" panel and plan to make a prototype "VGA Monitor" to prove it can work. Any interest out there in me turning this into a replacement CC analog board? I had actually had an idea to make a new rear housing for the CC to repackage it into a slim, flat panel machine, but for now I'll start with the monitor.
ants
Well-known member
I have a Colour Classic so yeah it would be possible for me to make a cast of the CRT. But I'm curious why you'd want to replace the Trinitron screen with a TFT? It will undoubtedly not look as good.
The LCD I sourced for my SE/30 project was pretty good, but still nowhere near as good as the output on my Colour Classic CRT. Hypothetically if an OLED panel could be sourced, then that would be a worthwhile upgrade, but I don't think anything like that exists.
These newer industrial replacement displays actually use modern TFT technology like IPS, A-Si, and have LED backlights, so you can get ones that look pretty good. The Trinitron would win on contrast ratio, but at 640x480, the TFT would be sharper than a VGA modded Color Classic. Even at 512x384 the color classic can get fuzzy requiring a tradeoff between focus at the center of the screen or at the edges. Also, I'm still thinking about a replacement rear case to convert the CC into a slim, flat panel version with the MLB mounted vertically and the I/O ports facing down. The SCSI HDD would be replaced with an SSD and the floppy slot would probably accept SC cards with floppy emulation(Multiple floppy images on a card). Just a bunch of crazy ideas, but starting with a CRT replacement may prove useful. These CRTs aren't going to last forever.
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DeChief
Active member
It's funny that you're talking about Color Classic tubes...
My colour SVGA CRT arrived today, and it turns out it uses the exact same Trinitron tube as the Color Classics do. I'm not sure that it's going to mount properly in the SE/30 front panel without me cutting away some plastic, so I may end up putting the whole thing in my poor-condition regular SE case and painting it or something. I have to cut a hole in the back for the tube's neck anyway.
My colour SVGA CRT arrived today, and it turns out it uses the exact same Trinitron tube as the Color Classics do. I'm not sure that it's going to mount properly in the SE/30 front panel without me cutting away some plastic, so I may end up putting the whole thing in my poor-condition regular SE case and painting it or something. I have to cut a hole in the back for the tube's neck anyway.
