dual 500MHz G4

[beachycove]

I have been doing a little thinking about upgrading my bought-new-in-2001 G4 Cube/450, and discover that I can buy dual 500MHz processors pretty cheap from the usual source - or put out a WTB here, for that matter.

However, before I spent any beer money, I went a-searching for benchmarks and came up with this chart from Geekbench, which rates a dual G4 tower running at 500MHz as about as fast as an 867MHz single processor Quicksilver - and this despite faster system bus, etc. (scroll down to around the 500 scores). Geekbench is a somewhat artificial measure, I know, but that is still fairly good company to be keeping in anyone's artificial measurement.

This seems to suggest that something like a theoretical 70% speedboost for my Cube would be possible from a transplant into it of this very cheap G4 daughtercard. (I already have a Radeon 7500, 1.25GB of RAM, and a base fan).

Does anyone have experience of the Dual 500MHz G4 machines who can verify the sense I get that this was a very able processor?

 

[johnklos]

OS X does a good job with multiple processors. It also gives you a slightly artificial multitasking advantage since a single 867 MHz processor can get pegged at 100% CPU from any single process, but a dual processor will always have that second processor to keep things interactive even when the first is pegged. If I had to choose between one 867 or two 500, I'd personally go for dual 500 MHz processors. One of my towers has dual 500 MHz processors and is quite responsive.

 

[Unknown_K]

How many OSX apps make use of more then one processors at a time (not talking about the OS itself but the apps)?

Both of my G4's are single processors (stock 800Mhz and a Sonnet 1.25Ghz powered Quicksilver) since I tend to use OS 9 more then OSX . If you need raw horsepower and task switch maybe a faster single CPU would be better?

 

[johnklos]

How many OSX apps make use of more then one processors at a time (not talking about the OS itself but the apps)?

Mot many, but it's hardly ever the case that people don't have more than one application open at a time. Your mail program could be doing stuff while you're browsing.

Since web browsers are very often used, it's worth mentioning that most make use of multiple processors by running multiple threads and at least Safari (not sure about Firefox) runs the plugins as separate processes so that Flash, for instance, which is a complete CPU hog, will consume one CPU but not the other which would be free for Safari.

That said, I highly recommend ClickToFlash for all computers because Flash is such a hog. It's much more useful on older, slower systems.

Both of my G4's are single processors (stock 800Mhz and a Sonnet 1.25Ghz powered Quicksilver) since I tend to use OS 9 more then OSX . If you need raw horsepower and task switch maybe a faster single CPU would be better?

OS 9 multiprocessor use is extremely specific to certain applications, so yes, a dual CPU won't give you any benefit at all unless you're running one of those certain applications.

 

[beachycove]

In my case, all I really want is to make the Cube more usable for writing and other text work such as bibliographical searches, email, and so on, in conjunction with light web browsing. This is text work for which I'd ideally like to use XML format (Open Office/ Office 2008), because of the fact that documents are sent to me for reading/ editing in that format. I also require full unicode support. The need for proper unicode means I can't go back to Office 2001 running in OS9; XML means I can't (readily) go back to Office 2004. I am not wanting a gaming machine, but a serviceable text processor able to work with current document standards.

I happen to have a stock G4 Cube that does all of the above, but it struggles somewhat with Office 2008.... Thus what I wonder is whether a dual processor, even a slow one, would take the heat off as far as running a limited range of multiple applications and threads running in the OS itself, permitting Office 2008 to run a good deal more smoothly. I have also read somewhere that Office can make use of dual processors — and while I am not sure if that is correct, it sure would be nice.

This would allow me, for the expenditure of a grand total of maybe $40, to continue to use the Cube for the next couple of years or so. Office 2011 (and a machine to run it) is not something I am anxious to buy, so long as the file format it produces and that is thus going to be "out there" remains compatible with what I've got now.

Ah, the relentless march of software! If it were not for what everyone else is running, I would be very happy just with Word 2001 on my 2400c, which I actually think is just about the perfect word processor/ computer combo.

 

[PowerPup]

beachycove, I know just the apps you're looking for.

Word Processor: Bean, one of the best FREE Mac WP in my mind. (Supports XML format, minus images)

Or, you could try out NeoOffice.

Light web browsing: Camino, Mozilla based browser with a Cocoa UI, lighter than Firefox.

Or you could stick with Safari.

... at least Safari (not sure about Firefox) runs the plugins as separate processes ...

As of Firefox 3.6.4 (current is 3.6.10,) Firefox has the "out of process" plugins feature.

 

[beachycove]

Well, I have made an offer on a couple of dual 500 G4 processors — one for a Cube and one for a G4 AGP Graphics machine that I also have running as a server. That way I also have a spare if one of them should fry.

On the other subject, I do need Word 2008, for reasons relating to collaboration at work, but thanks for the suggestions for alternative software. Some can and will be followed up.

 

[beachycove]

I just came across this archived post from a longtime Mac reseller and service tech who knows his stuff over on on ehmac.ca. It refers to the dual 500 G4 specifically and gives me some hope that this upgrade really might work:

Actually a 450 or 500 7400 chip with 1 meg L2 cache is easily the equivalent of any 700-800 later G4 with smaller L3 caches.
I had a client who had heard me chat about how good the Dual 450s and 500s were from the era on Tiger. He ended up with a 450 dual and in his words "it blew the 733 Quicksilver out of the water" - he made it a point to call me.

A dual 500 is about the same processing as a dual 800 - the big L2 caches are just wonderful.........as we are seeing now with the Intels.

I'll report back on the results once the dual processor arrives and is installed.

 

[Unknown_K]

QS2001 with 733 G4 had no cache, like the G4-800 QS2002 so they are much slower then the others of those lines. Maybe if Apple was using DDR like PC models the memory bandwidth would have helped out those processors more then the old PC133 did (or they could have only sold machines with cache).

 

[H3NRY]

OS 9 doesn't use dual CPUs, so only MP-aware programs like Photoshop will benefit much, so for OS 9, a fast single CPU is the ticket. OS X has multiprocessor support at the kernel level, and dual G4s will work nicely, especially the ones with 2MB cache per CPU. The early 100 MHz buss G4s love cache.

 

[Temetka]

I hate to come across as harsh but the OP did state that:

The need for proper unicode means I can't go back to Office 2001 running in OS9

also followed up with:

I do need Word 2008, for reasons relating to collaboration at work

So if we understand that he requires Office 2008 and if we understand that said software requires the following:

* Intel, PowerPC G5, or PowerPC G4 (500 MHz or faster) processor

* Mac OS X version 10.4.9 or later

* 512 MB of RAM or more

* 1.5 GB of available hard disk space

* HFS+ hard disk format (also known as Mac OS Extended or HFS Plus)

* DVD drive or connection to a local area network (if installing over a network)

* 1024 x 768 or higher-resolution monitor

* Entourage and certain features require Internet access (fees may apply)

Then it should not take any great stretch of brain processing power to arrive at the conclusion that NeoOffice, OS 9, or any software which is not what the op already stated he required is not a contender in this case.

So then why are some of you recommending software against what his already stated requirements are? Let me re-iterate those requirements for those of you in the back of the class who are not paying attention:

In my case, all I really want is to make the Cube more usable

I also require full unicode support. The need for proper unicode means I can't go back to Office 2001 running in OS9; XML means I can't (readily) go back to Office 2004. I am not wanting a gaming machine, but a serviceable text processor able to work with current document standards.

and of course the main requirement which he clearly stated as:

I do need Word 2008, for reasons relating to collaboration at work

Ok so are well clear on what the OP does and does not need? Are we sure? Maybe you should read the post again.

I swear, as the internet becomes even more pervasive in our daily lives peoples reading comprehension seems to be reduced. I cannot begin to share with you guys just how much this bothers me. Please for the love of {insert deity of choice here} take more than 15 seconds to read and process something before posting. }

 

[PowerPup]

Dude, calm down.

In my case, all I really want is to make the Cube more usable for writing and other text work such as bibliographical searches, email, and so on, in conjunction with light web browsing. This is text work for which I'd ideally like to use XML format (Open Office/ Office 2008), because of the fact that documents are sent to me for reading/ editing in that format. I also require full unicode support. The need for proper unicode means I can't go back to Office 2001 running in OS9; XML means I can't (readily) go back to Office 2004. I am not wanting a gaming machine, but a serviceable text processor able to work with current document standards.

I happen to have a stock G4 Cube that does all of the above, but it struggles somewhat with Office 2008.... -----

I merely suggested software that's free and/or open source that to my knowledge meets his requirements.

On the other subject, I do need Word 2008, for reasons relating to collaboration at work, but thanks for the suggestions for alternative software. Some can and will be followed up.

He did not mentioned this in his previous post, and he was thankful for the suggestions anyway, if he isn't upset about this then why should you? Someone trying to be helpful even if they don't fully understand is nothing to get upset about.

 

[beachycove]

All is well.

As I said, I ended up ordering two of the dual G4s, in part to have a spare, and in part because they were cheap and the shipping was about the same for two as for one. Tonight I transplanted the "spare" one into a 400MHz AGP tower running X.3 Server. I ran XBench on the tower before and after the processor swap.

In one sense, benchmarks are meaningless because who knows which of the things they measure are being called upon in ordinary usage. However, so far as it goes, here is what I came up with:

A 500MHz processor is 25% faster than a 400MHz processor. XBench measures performance across a range of components, from the CPU to memory to Graphics. The Graphics card is a basic Rage 128 Pro AGP in this case. The machine has 1.25GB RAM.

The results were occasionally predictable, and occasionally more surprising. The CPU was anything from 26% to 41% faster, depending on the individual test in question; threads were from 67% to 145% faster; even memory was from 2% to 28% faster across various tests in which it was accessed; the graphics were from 24% to 33% faster, which surprised me to no end; and on what XBench calls the User Interface Test, the dual G4 at 500MHz was 61% faster than the single G4 400MHz machine. I am not sure what that involved but it sure looks good.

All of this means only as much as an XBench test is worth, I suppose, but these are tentative results.

When I get a few spare hours, I will be popping the other dual G4 card into my Cube and will try to run a wider range of benchmarking software to gauge the effect. The Cube requires serious surgery for this work, which involves some modest hackery. Hopefully I will get a smoother user experience; a 61% improvement would suit me just fine! (I won't get it, of course, but we live in hope.)

The real proof of the pudding has to be gained from actual use, and that will need a bit of time spent actually using the machine on long, complex documents and the like. I'll report back one of these days on the results.

 

[Rodus]

^^May be worth considering switching out the GPU's as the 128's are pretty archaic now. I stuck a Geforce2 MX in one of my G4's and an original Radeon in the other, cheap and a good way to get OS X feeling much snappier.

 

[beachycove]

This one is only a server, so the lowend graphics card is deliberate.

 

[beachycove]

I took some time tonight to install the dual 500 G4 card in my Cube. Some hackery was involved, as a component on the card needed to be moved and as the heatsink required modification. I also mistakenly dislodged a cable and had to disassemble again once everything was together in order to troubleshoot. Murphy's law.

I can, however, now report on the test scores.

The Geekbench score went from 294 (1x450MHz processor) to 512 (2x500MHz processors). XBench score averages went similarly from 16.5 (1x450MHz) to 25.31 (2x500MHz). Geekbench claims the machine to be about 74% faster, and tXBench about 53%. This, of course, is piffle, but encouraging piffle all the same.

This is really the first dual G4 I have had experience of, apart from a quick tinker in shops. It is running a little hotter, and is currently climbing slowly towards 40ºC even with the fan, which was of course expected. We'll see where it peaks in the kind of usage I give it (I do not plan to play games on this machine, or do multimedia work, so it will live a quiet life.)

What surprises me is that the CPU usage in the Activity Monitor is showing both processors as roughly equivalent in activity on average, even in applications that are supposed to be incapable of using two processors (such as Word 2008). A complicated document in Word 2008 more or less maxes them out when doing previews and the like.

I will have to spend a bit of time with the machine before I can formulate any clearer impressions of the difference — but so far so good.

 

[beachycove]

It was late at night when I wrote that last post, and I did not have much time to tinker.

Playing with the system today reveals that it is indeed much, much faster and smoother at everything in "real life" tasks. Office 2008 is very bearable. Scrolling is smoother and faster, and while there there is still some small lag, it is much less pronounced than before. Safari is much snappier, and the fading effects and such which draw on Quartz are much less ragged. It's no Mac Pro, but it'll do me for the purpose I have in mind for another couple of years at least.

I also just cross-checked the Geekbench score I got last evening with the published score for the Dual 500 Gigabit Ethernet machine from which the daughter card came. The Dual 500 Cube is actually faster with a Geekbench score of 512 than the donor Gigabit Ethernet tower was at 489 — possibly due to the graphics card, as my Cube has a Radeon 7500 — and checks in just under a single processor 933MHz Quicksilver at 523. These are, however, average scores: no doubt the single processor Quicksilver would outshine the dual 500 on something like the Memory scores, whereas the dual G4 would presumably handily beat the Quicksilver in threads. I think threads the more important of the two in many ways.

The upshot is that this really is a great upgrade and one that I would recommend to Cube owners, as it is very cheap (maybe $25), though it requires a little mechanical know-how and some soldering to pull off. The temperature in the upgraded Cube seems to be, on average, about 7ºC hotter than it was in the machine stock, now standing at at about 36ºC under normal operating conditions. I am just doing web and text work, with a little MP3 encoding and such, nothing more. I saw it peak when running the benchmarking utilities at 43ºC.

These temperature numbers are not, I should add, based on the temperature of the core itself, but on the temperature sensor in the WD Hard Drive (my utilities do not detect any other temperature sensor in the machine). Assuming this is about right — and I am assuming that it is, given that the whole top cover of the HD physically touches the heat sink in a Cube, and the the HD has heatsinks that contact the core's heatsink — 35ºC should be kosher, should it not? I have never bothered to measure temperatures before, know nothing about it, and would like not to fry my "new" G4 Cube, which I have treasured since I bought it when new.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

As of Firefox 3.6.4 (current is 3.6.10,) Firefox has the "out of process" plugins feature.

I didn't notice this before, so apologies for the commentary on the old post, but Fx 3.6 does not support OOPP on Mac OS X. Fx 4.0 does, but only on Intel. It *is* multithreaded, but not multiprocess.

 

[Unknown_K]

Well I got a Sawtooth G4-400 and upgraded it to dual G4-500's so I can have some fun. What is the best version of OSX for that machine?