Downgrading from Mac OS 8.1 to 7.5

[motley2659]

Okay, I bought a Macintosh Performa 631CD, with 36MB and a 1GB IDE Hard Drive.  The seller installed Mac OS 8.1 but it is too slow, and it has terrible compatibility playing many programs and games I've installed, so I want to replace it with System 7.5.

So I downloaded the Apple 7.5.3 19 part floppy disk images and the combined disk image is sitting in a folder on my desktop.  So what do I do now?  I don't understand all the install options: Do I do a "clean install" or a custom install.  I initially started a custom install and checked everything to install and it kept giving me prompts asking if I want to replace every file and program with the older version.  I cancelled the installation.  I don't want to pick the wrong option and make my new Mac not bootable.

 

[EvilCapitalist]

Are you running from a boot disk or trying to run the 7.5.3 installer while booted into 8.1 as normal?

 

[Elfen]

7.5.3? You would do better with System 7.6.1, but what the hey.

Yes, such a downgrade will erase all your old system files and preferences. If you want and have the space for it, make a folder within a folder and name them "Old System" and drag the System, 8 folder into it......

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

OS 8.1? DAMN!

The way you were going to install System 7, it would not have worked. OS 8.1 would have had the hard drive formatted under HFS+. To install System 7, you would have to repartition the drive with HD Set Up and format the drive (in HFS, which does so automatically). Doing this from floppies without formatting the drive, after answering all those questions, it would try to write the file, find out that it could not and then throw up an error window giving an problem. System 7 can not recognize HFS+ Formatted disks and are blind to their directories.

You would need to format that drive to install System 7, losing everything that drive had under OS8.

 

[bse5150]

68K macs can't boot from an hfs+ formatted drive.  So the OP's mac is not formatted hfs+.

 

[motley2659]

Are you running from a boot disk or trying to run the 7.5.3 installer while booted into 8.1 as normal?

Yes, I'm booted into 8.1 as normal.  The 7.5.3 installer is in a folder on my desktop. 

7.5.3? You would do better with System 7.6.1, but what the hey.

The way you were going to install System 7, it would not have worked. OS 8.1 would have had the hard drive formatted under HFS+.

System 7.6 doesn't allow me to switch into 24bit addressing mode.  That's the primary reason I want to go with 7.5.3.  I'm looking for the best OS for old B/W stuff, as well as color games that only run in 24bit (eg Rex Nebular) and newer stuff for 68040 processors.

As bse5150 said, I'm pretty sure the 1GB IDE is in HFS.

 

[BadGoldEagle]

I never owned an 8.1 machine so

I don't know if you can partition the drive while preserving the data on it. If you can that, preserving your data would be really easy.

If it's possible, you have two options: you can

A/ be able to access your 8.1 from your System 7 (a bit risky, involves moving your current data to another partition and erasing the original ) OR 

B/ not be able to access your 8.1 from your SSW7  but be able to access SSW7 from 8.1 (you can copy and paste what you want to use later with 7.5 or 7.6 from the 8.1)

A/ You should:

1/ Determine how much space you need to backup your drive.

2/ add a new partition on your hard drive that will contain all your existing system files etc...  DON'T FORMAT ALL THE DRIVE IF THAT'S THE ONLY CHOICE

3/ format it in HFS NOT HFS+

4/ Drag your existing system folder & files to that partition under 8.1 because 8.1 and up can read and write on both HFS and HFS+

5/ Test your new partition (boot from it) -> choose the right one using the "startup devices" control panel.

6/ Format your old HFS+ partition in plain HFS. You should have two partitions, one HFS with your 8.1 data and a new HFS one where your HFS+ 8.1 data used to be.

7/ Install whichever OS you want on that new partition.

That way you can access your 8.1 partition from your SSW7. You cannot make any mistakes though, because you can loose all your data!

B/ OR you can just create a new HFS partition, next to your HFS+ one and install system 7 on it but then you can't access 8.1 from SSW7. 

But you can access SSW7 from 8.1 and copy the data from there. As I said above.

If you can't partition the drive while preserving the data on it, I think the best thing to do is to replace the internal hard drive altogether. You can buy an external IDE drive for example. That way you could transfer files between the two OSes, but only if you boot from 8.1. Remember System 7 or OS 8.0 can't read or write to HFS+. 

For example you could format the external drive, install system 7 on it, boot from 8.1 and copy & paste apps or files from the 8.1 drive that you find interesting to your fresh system 7 install. 

The last thing to do is to swap the drives. And I don't think that's too much of a trouble with IDEs... Just crack open the cases unplug the molex connector & the IDE cable, swap the drive, reconnect and you're done.

I prefer this second solution or B because it's safer. You don't risk loosing your 8.1 data at all. You know, one press of a button can destroy all your data, you have to be careful!

OH and you should use Lido to format stuff, it's somewhat better than Apple's version (or at least it's better than Apple HD SC for SCSI drives but your Mac is not SCSI but IDE. I'm more of a Mac 128k to Classic guy so I'm not very familiar with IDEs in Macs. But the procedure is the same to backup your data)

 

[BadGoldEagle]

Oh you replied before I had the chance to explain myself a little more.

If you know that the hard drive is in HFS, then you can skip A.

Since it's in HFS, you can see it under SSW7. Now remains the question of the partitioning of the drive: is it possible create one more partition with already one is installed?

 

[EvilCapitalist]

Yes, I'm booted into 8.1 as normal.  The 7.5.3 installer is in a folder on my desktop. 

You would want to boot from the disk tools floppy, it should be one of the images you downloaded (make sure you use the one that's for computers with IDE drives).  While you can run the install for 7.5.3 while booted into your existing 8.1 install it's a lot easier/cleaner IMO to boot off of something else, delete your existing System Folder and do a clean install of 7.5.3.

 

[motley2659]

You would want to boot from the disk tools floppy, it should be one of the images you downloaded (make sure you use the one that's for computers with IDE drives).  While you can run the install for 7.5.3 while booted into your existing 8.1 install it's a lot easier/cleaner IMO to boot off of something else, delete your existing System Folder and do a clean install of 7.5.3.

I made a 7.5 bootdisk and it doesn't recognize the IDE drive.  It says "SCSI device not found".  The full installer does recognize the drive, though.

I never owned an 8.1 machine so

I don't know if you can partition the drive while preserving the data on it. If you can that, preserving your data would be really easy.

If it's possible, you have two options: you can

A/ be able to access your 8.1 from your System 7 (a bit risky, involves moving your current data to another partition and erasing the original ) OR 

B/ not be able to access your 8.1 from your SSW7  but be able to access SSW7 from 8.1 (you can copy and paste what you want to use later with 7.5 or 7.6 from the 8.1)

A/ You should:

1/ Determine how much space you need to backup your drive.

2/ add a new partition on your hard drive that will contain all your existing system files etc...  DON'T FORMAT ALL THE DRIVE IF THAT'S THE ONLY CHOICE

3/ format it in HFS NOT HFS+

4/ Drag your existing system folder & files to that partition under 8.1 because 8.1 and up can read and write on both HFS and HFS+

5/ Test your new partition (boot from it) -> choose the right one using the "startup devices" control panel.

6/ Format your old HFS+ partition in plain HFS. You should have two partitions, one HFS with your 8.1 data and a new HFS one where your HFS+ 8.1 data used to be.

7/ Install whichever OS you want on that new partition.

That way you can access your 8.1 partition from your SSW7. You cannot make any mistakes though, because you can loose all your data!

B/ OR you can just create a new HFS partition, next to your HFS+ one and install system 7 on it but then you can't access 8.1 from SSW7. 

But you can access SSW7 from 8.1 and copy the data from there. As I said above.

If you can't partition the drive while preserving the data on it, I think the best thing to do is to replace the internal hard drive altogether. You can buy an external IDE drive for example. That way you could transfer files between the two OSes, but only if you boot from 8.1. Remember System 7 or OS 8.0 can't read or write to HFS+. 

For example you could format the external drive, install system 7 on it, boot from 8.1 and copy & paste apps or files from the 8.1 drive that you find interesting to your fresh system 7 install. 

The last thing to do is to swap the drives. And I don't think that's too much of a trouble with IDEs... Just crack open the cases unplug the molex connector & the IDE cable, swap the drive, reconnect and you're done.

I prefer this second solution or B because it's safer. You don't risk loosing your 8.1 data at all. You know, one press of a button can destroy all your data, you have to be careful!

OH and you should use Lido to format stuff, it's somewhat better than Apple's version (or at least it's better than Apple HD SC for SCSI drives but your Mac is not SCSI but IDE. I'm more of a Mac 128k to Classic guy so I'm not very familiar with IDEs in Macs. But the procedure is the same to backup your data)

Yeah, I just have single 1GB HFS partition, so I'm not really following all this.  Are you saying that I need to make another HFS partition on my drive in order to install a new operating system? 

If so, I guess I need to use Apple Disk Tools on a floppy, but I did this and it doesn't recognize the IDE.

 

[BadGoldEagle]

Do you want to keep the original system and add a second one? Or just have 7.5 with all the apps you already have?

I don't know if it's possible to resize the partition and add a second one. I know it's possible on modern hardware but on a computer this old, I'm not so sure. If you can't resize the partition, you'll have to get rid of your current one or you will have to add an external HD. You can swap the drives later. That is, if you want to keep both systems.

If you only want 7.5, then do what EvilCapitalist said. But keep your system folder somewhere, don't delete it. You never know what the future is made of. 

The most immediate problem is the HD not being recognised. I was referring earlier to Lido, but IIRC it's only for SCSI HDs. I read on the web that the correct tool to format drives is indeed Apple Drive setup. So you got the right one.

The fact that 7.5.3 says it can't find any SCSI drives makes me think that you need a system enabler for your machine.

I didn't find a particular system enabler for the 631CD, but there is one for the 630CD which is the same as the one for the Quadra 630 (same form factor as yours). They all had IDE infrastructure. System enablers were only required from 7.1 to 7.5.5, so you don't have it right now on your hard disk since 8.1 is on it.

You could maybe give it a go anyway? Just place System Enabler 405 on the first of the 19 floppy disks when you try to install 7.5.3.

 

[Elfen]

BadGoldEagle - I was going to mention what you stated but realized that the OS in question is 8.1 and in 8.1 the format is in HFS+. To install System 7 one needs to format the drive in HFS. This would be a total loss in data.

- - - - -

68K macs can't boot from an hfs+ formatted drive.  So the OP's mac is not formatted hfs+.

I'm almost tempted to say "Wanna bet?" But my LC 475 is on the frtiz and my only other 040 machine is a IIci with the DayStar 040 Turbo in it. It has a 2.1GB Drive and it is formatted in HSF+ running OS 8.0

OS 8.0 can run on HFS for partitions 2GB and under and HFS+ with partitions 2GB and over. OS8.1 can not run under HFS without difficulties, and 8.6 can not run on HFS at all regardless of partition sizes.

Pushing my experience further, several schools I worked for had Performa/LC 475s, 575s & 580s running OS 8.1 on HFS+. When one puts in a 575 or 580 recovery/install CD with System 7.5 or 7.6 and you click on the hard drive, a window pops ups with one folder in it and a TeachText file with the file name "Why cant you see all your files?" which explains why. When that happens when you boot from System 7, the drive is formatted in HFS+ and not HFS.  In fact motley2659 should boot in System 7 and see if he can see all the files or not. If he can not, then he needs to reformat the drive in HFS.

- - - - - 

motley2659 - Which system 7 you set up is on you, I'm not questioning that or the reasons behind it. You should verify what logic board in your 631CD and many of them were upgraded to a 6312CD (PowerPC) with a logic board swap. That's simple to do by sliding out the logic board from the rear and look at the CPU. If there is a square "pie pan" heatsink on the CPU clipped onto the logic board, its PowerPC; if it has a "castle top" heatsink glued to the cpu, then its a 040. If there is no heatsink, you can read it off the chip.

Then and only then when you find out what you have, you can use a 68K/PowerPC FAT Stripper/Checker and strip out what code you do not need. If you have an 040, you do not need PowerPC Code in your system and Apps. This will shrink your programs/system make things load faster, use less memory and adding all these benefits together - run faster.

And note: the 631CD came with a 68LC040 - a 040 without a FPU. If you can swap out the FPU-less 040 with a full 040 with a FPU, things will run faster as well, without touching the oscillator! At 33MHz, the 631CD is a kick ass machine with a full 040, only a few 68K machines can touch it performance wise.

- - - - -

Back to topic - In seeing and reviewing this, the only option there is, is format the drive in System 7 to install it. if there is a need to have both Systems/OSes on the drive, then one needs to create two partitions and makes one for System 7 and OS 8... and things are going to get messy from there.

 

[motley2659]

Do you want to keep the original system and add a second one? Or just have 7.5 with all the apps you already have?

The latter.  Either just 7.5 and the apps I've already installed or have a completely formatted drive and install 7.5.3 from scratch.  Coming from the DOS/Windows world of vintage PC's I'm used to doing the usual fdisk, format, install the operating system.  With vintage macs, it doesn't seem to be as simple as that

The most immediate problem is the HD not being recognised. I was referring earlier to Lido, but IIRC it's only for SCSI HDs. I read on the web that the correct tool to format drives is indeed Apple Drive setup. So you got the right one.

The fact that 7.5.3 says it can't find any SCSI drives makes me think that you need a system enabler for your machine.

I didn't find a particular system enabler for the 631CD, but there is one for the 630CD which is the same as the one for the Quadra 630 (same form factor as yours). They all had IDE infrastructure. System enablers were only required from 7.1 to 7.5.5, so you don't have it right now on your hard disk since 8.1 is on it.

You could maybe give it a go anyway? Just place System Enabler 405 on the first of the 19 floppy disks when you try to install 7.5.3.

To be clear, the only scenario (that I've tried) where the IDE hard disk is NOT recognized is booting the system with the 7.5 disk tools set, AND clicking on Apple's Hard Drive Setup.  The Apple Hard Drive Setup itself is the program that does not recognize the IDE drive.  When I boot with 7.5 disk tools floppy, my hard drive (with 8.1) appears and it is accessible.  Also if I boot into OS 8.1 and I start the 7.5.3 installer, that installer recognizes the IDE drive

Secondly, I understand what you are saying with the System Enabler, but remember, this is the 19 part file from Apple that merges into one large 40MB 7.5.3 installer.  There are no floppy disks to insert the System Enabler into like on a retail floppy set. 

What about trying this in the following steps.

1) Boot with System 7.5 floppy disk

2) Open hard drive on desktop

3) Drag 8.1 system folder from hard disk into trash

4) Click on System 7.5.3 folder and start installation

5) Install System enabler

Also I still don't know which installation to pick on the System 7.5.3 installer:  there is Easy, Custom, Clean, and one other I forgot the name

 

[techknight]

IF its a CD model, just burn a copy of the legacy recovery CD at the mac garden. 

Then boot it up off the CD, Run Drive Setup, do a format, and then reinstall system 7.5.3

These machines REQUIRED system 7.5.1 or newer. 

Done. This isnt rocket science

 

[motley2659]

Done. This isnt rocket science

Us simpletons sometimes don't realize we are simpletons and ask questions on message boards.

I was going to post another thread entitled "Where do I plug my Xbox 360 controller into my Mac Plus" but I caught myself.

Thanks.

 

[bse5150]

BadGoldEagle - I was going to mention what you stated but realized that the OS in question is 8.1 and in 8.1 the format is in HFS+. To install System 7 one needs to format the drive in HFS. This would be a total loss in data.

You're giving bad information, Elfen.

A 68k mac cannot boot from an HFS+ partition.   So the partition (or disk) that contains his System folder is an HFS file system drive.  There is no need to reformat the drive to install System 7.5.x...

 

[rezwits]

I tried to goto 7.5.x because of power talk, I wanted the keychain, for AppleShare alias passwords, but that didn't even work, I couldn't remember if they had them that early.

But anyway, don't do 7.5.x is waaaay more buggier than 7.6.1.  And power talk with everything don't do s#!+!...

Just letting you know.

Laters...

 

[Elfen]

motley2659 - you might have a major problem with this downgrade.

(I REALLY HAD TO SEARCH ARCHIVE.ORG TO FIND THIS ARTICLE AS THE ORIGINAL SITE IS DOWN!)

From: https://web.archive.org/web/20070501070717/http://www.mug.jhmi.edu/mirrors/InfoAlley/1196/15/apple.html

The Macintosh LC 580, Macintosh 630 Family, Power Macintosh 5200 and 5300 LC, Performa 5200/5300 and 6200/6300 series only operate in 32-bit addressing mode. Since the Apple IIe card is not compatible with 32-bit addressing, the Apple IIe Card is not compatible with these computers.

The problem is clear here: You stated that you wanted your 631CD to operate System 7.5.x for 24bit addressing because some old programs will not work with 32bit Addressing. The 631CD is part of the 630 family and falls into this problem. Therefore it will not downgrade to System 7.5 with 24bit addressing, it would default to 32bit addressing. In short, when you go to the memory control panel in System 7 (at best) 32/24 Bit addressing will be missing. If it is there (at worst) when you switch it to 24bit mode, it will crash the machine and render it unbootable until you boot it with Extensions Off and delete the Memory Preferences File from the System Folder -> Preferences and then reboot, rendering back to 32bit addressing.

The only way out of it as I see it is to do it in hardware - pull out the logic board and remove the all but 8MB of RAM. This I believe would force the 631CD to operate in 24bit Mode though it is in 32bit Mode because there is no no RAM in the upper 32Bit area.

 

[Elfen]

rezwits - I so agree. And OpenTransport Networking always keep crashing!

 

[Cory5412]

Under what circumstances does OT crash? I've had perfect reliability with OT on every Mac I've used it on, from system 7.1 onward, 68k and PPC.

In terms of bitness and compatibility: it may still be the case that programs run better on 7.5.3 or 7.5.5 than 8.1, even though the 630 series can't enter the 24-bit mode needed to use the LCPDS IIe card.