Apple II Daughter Boards (Z-Engine / Grappler Plus)

[Gorgonops]

So I have to format one of these for CP/M...  I guess I'll try OmniFlop before I break out the Kaypro, although it's only being blocked by the CC 560 I have to work on anyway...

Apple II CP/M uses a GCR format, just like native Apple II DOSes. You can't read or write these disks on just about anything else, to image them you'll have to use an ADTpro-style transfer solution or some exotic hardware. (Catweasel, etc.)

ADTpro specifically supports Apple II CP/M format disk image.

 

[raoulduke]

Hmm okay. Thanks.

Wait there's a logic issue here.  I will need to create new images, meaning I will need to initialize them and manipulate them in an Apple CP/M environment, no?  Is there an emulator?

2) This doesn't per se address the problem which is that either it's not recognizing the card or the ProDOS files appear to be no good.

And... I'm assuming nobody actually has the manual?  I saw one sold, I think, on eBay a while ago but I've never found a digital copy.

 

[raoulduke]

To my first, question Apple II Oasis emulator can probably do this.  However, it only runs 32-bit, so I'll try it later.

 

[Elfen]

You need to look at the Time Frame of the history involved to get some answers.

C\PM was around since around 1976 or so on S100 systems on Z80 and 6800 CPUs (and later on the 68000). Apple came out in 1977 with the Apple II in '78/'79. Steve Wozinac developed both the hardware and software for the Apple II, in short making the Apple DOS 1.0 that evolved to Apple DOS 3.3 by the 1983 (or so). Since the Apple as cheaper than the S-100 it developed its own software library that C\PM already had.

Intergalactic Digital Research tried to make C\PM for the Apple but it was to expensive to buy. And many companies did not want to recompile all their Z80 C\PM software for the Apple 6502 system. Microsoft made the first Z80 C\PM card which made things easier to load up the C\PM Library and run it on Apple. this was around 1980. Despite a few glitches, it worked well. Glitches like - the C\PM Boot Disk being in Apple Format and not C\PM format. Disks used after that had to be C\PM Format.

By C\PM format I mean by so many sectors on so many tracks on the disk. The Apple DOS and C\PM disk formats were different. The Apple Disk Controller can be fooled to read/write what ever formats one needed; not bad for a disk controller that only had 6 chips on it while your average disk controller had over 50 and can only read 1 format. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember correctly Apple DOS had something like 13 sectors per track for 40 tracks on a 5.25in disk while C\PM had 16 sectors on 40 tracks; but I forget the sector sizes, I'm guessing 128 bytes per sector on Apple and 96 bytes on C\PM or something like that. It is because of these differences that complicated things.  But Microsoft made it work and others copied it.

In a couple of years, the IIe would be coming out and Microsoft was aligning itself with IBM for the PC by stealing C\PM and releasing it as MS DOS. By 1984 C\PM systems were dying out when the IBM PC came out. C\PM still held on into the mid 90s but the popularity of the PC was its demise. At this time the Apple II software Library exceeded the C\PM Library; Apple had one thing that C\PM did not - High and Low Resolution Graphics; and by the time C\PM systems came out with Graphics, it was too late. So by the time the IIe came out, support for C\PM began to dwindle, more so for C\PM on Apple.

Apple ProDOS came out around '86, and had some backwards compatibility to keep the older programs that are Apple DOS 3.3 going. But it did not support anything else. Therefore support for C\PM on Apple disappeared.

You are running your C\PM card on a IIe and/or a IIgs. Its doable but not as simple as it would be on the II/II+. To have C\PM on Apple, you need to use DOS3.3 and not ProDOS. ProDOS has no support for C\PM Format, DOS 3.3 does only if you boot C\PM from it. This is why you need your C\PM Boot Disk in Apple DOS 3.3 format; ProDOS will not work. If you try to install C\PM Boot Disk onto a ProDOS Formatted disk, it will try to boot and then crash for one reason or another. This is why it will not work.

 

[Gorgonops]

By C\PM format I mean by so many sectors on so many tracks on the disk. The Apple DOS and C\PM disk formats were different. The Apple Disk Controller can be fooled to read/write what ever formats one needed; not bad for a disk controller that only had 6 chips on it while your average disk controller had over 50 and can only read 1 format. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember correctly Apple DOS had something like 13 sectors per track for 40 tracks on a 5.25in disk while C\PM had 16 sectors on 40 tracks; but I forget the sector sizes, I'm guessing 128 bytes per sector on Apple and 96 bytes on C\PM or something like that. It is because of these differences that complicated things. But Microsoft made it work and others copied it.

Several misconceptions here:

1: There is effectively no such thing as a "standard" CP/M disk format. The closest to it is the single-density IBM 3740 format for 8" floppies, which was often used as the lowest common denominator format for early systems; there's no 5.25 inch equivalent. Every manufacturer came up with their own ideas for an optimum format when customizing CP/M for their systems so even machines that use basically identical disk controller hardware usually have different native formats, thus requiring some translation software to go between them. This is one reason why CP/M eventually lost out to IBM PC compatibles, which for all their faults at least let you transparently share data disks.

2. Yes, the Apple disk controller is very programmable and lets you write all sorts of oddball formats. That doesn't change the fact that it's still fundamentally incompatible with most computers equipped with standard disk controller ICs. While it is technically possible for the Apple disk controller to read and write an FM encoded data track with the same cell spacing as a conventional Single Density controller (thereby producing a disk that can hold about 90k of data) Apple drives lack an index sensor, so it's impossible for them to reliably write a disk with the correct sector alignment to be read by a machine that DOES rely on the index hole to inform it where a track starts. So, yeah, while there's theoretically a chance you could craft a format writable by a standard controller that you could READ on an Apple II two-way communication really isn't possible, outside of some really wacky one-off possibilities. (Like using a single density format with a single sector on each track, formatted on the machine with the index sensor and only re-written a track at a time on the Apple with some split-second timing. There may have been some toy/demo programs that did this but I can't name any.)

Anyway, because of the above Apple II versions of CP/M use the same 13/16 sector physical GCR format as Apple DOS. (In fact I'm pretty sure they use the 6502 to handle disk I/O.) Only the directory structure is different.

 

[Elfen]

I agree with what you say here, Gorgonops, the time frame here is around 1980/81, where except for a few machines (like the TRS80 Model 16) stayed with the 8in Floppy format, everyone went to the 5.25in disk format like the Osbourne and Kaypro. The point I'm trying to make, is that I seen it demonstrated that the Apple II Disks with some software trickery can read "Native" CP\M 5.25 Disks. To some extent it could write them as you said but people were busy using their CP\M based Apples to read disks they brought in from work or other sources (before the advent of the PC). Rarely they had to write to the disks. they either printed out reports at home or in a worst case, they had to upload the files to a BBS at work.

But what killed it was around 1984 when companies began producing double sided disk drive systems (for CP\M and the PC) and Apple stayed with the single sided disk drives. People still had a choice to format single or double sided disks but double sided CP\M Disks were unreadable on Apples.

Microsoft had a lot of trickery to get their CP\M Z80 card to work, like you said. The 6502 dealt with the I/O while the Z80 dealt with the CP\M itself, and there was a lot of back and forth between the two. Later on Microsoft tried to make a total CP/M Z80 system on a card with its own I/O but it was too high a technical hurdle. At least they were able to accomplish a Z80 card with its own RAM so it would not have to steal from the Apple's 6502 RAM. At best, it sped things up greatly. At worst, you needed a totally separate CP\M (I think CP\M 2.0) for it to work.

 

[Gorgonops]

Yes, direct disk transfer parlor tricks were something that was demonstrated at the time, but I'm not sure anyone ever actually produced a reliable commercial-grade product using the technique. (Also of note is the fact that by the time the SoftCard hit the market in 1980 most manufacturers were adopting double density formats, which the Disk II CANNOT handle, period.)

The standard line back then was that transferring between CP/M systems "often" required a serial connection and in the case of Apple machines "often" generally meant "always". If you can point to an example of a disk transfer utility that actually went commercial it would certainly be interesting to see if copies of it still exist in the various software archives.

(Note that this problem wasn't just confined to Apple CP/M anyway. Some of the most popular early 5.25 inch machines, such as the Zenith Z-89 and the entire Northstar line use hard-sector floppies, which likewise cannot be read on machines with soft sector controllers.)

To some degree the "oddball" disk format wasn't much of a problem at the time anyway, because for a while Apple IIs with SoftCards were the single most popular CP/M machine on the market anyway. It wasn't hard to get software for it.

 

[Elfen]

For some reason "Copy II Plus" keeps popping in my head but I know that is not the utility that did multiple format read/writes/copies. I also do remember that there was a PC Utility that also read/write various disk formats but that name also eludes me. Though it was a DOS Program it was for transferring CP\M (CP\M 88) disk formats and DOS Formats (as well as other formats including Apple, Atari, and Commodore). I remember it had a huge full screen menu of options of what formats to convert from to PC/MS DOS. Apple's version of that program had fewer options because of is being single sided/single density but it covered a lot of options despite the limitations.

 

[Gorgonops]

Central Point Software DID sell a special disk controller for IBM PCs called the "Option Board" that combined with CopyIIpc could read just about any floppy format and allowed data transfer with Apple II, Mac, all sorts of things. But, no, the Apple II version that worked with the Disk II controller has no support for reading non-Apple disks. It can manage all the crazy Apple tricks like half tracks, quarter tracks, spiral tracks, etc, etc, but there is nothing in the manual (which is readily available online) about handling alien disks. (Note that, yes, the bit editor function CAN work on CP/M disks, but only Apple CP/M disks.)

 

[Gorgonops]

... And also note that, conversely, the PC board could only handle plain Jane Apple II disks because Shugart interface drives can't be half-stepped.

 

[raoulduke]

Initially I thought I could read 5.25" ProDOS disks on DOS 3.3.  But I'm now guessing you can't.  So how can I transfer the files from their ProDOS format disks to an Apple DOS 3.3 disk?  GSOS cannot format or write to the latter.  DOS 3.3 cannot read the former (lol) as best I can tell.  I feel like this will come up if I try proper emulators too.

I'm not clear on how ADTPro would help because the underlying image format is still ProDOS, meaning that I have to find a way to read that image and write the individual files in DOS 3.3.  The only way I can see to do that is actually within DOS 3.3 - unless there's a liminal version of ProDOS that can do both?  Sorry I'm in a time crunch or I'd do more research.

 

[Elfen]

You can't read ProDOS Disks from Apple DOS but you can do the reverse - read DOS Disks on ProDOS.

You should be able to copy files from DOS Disks to ProDOS from ProDOS and copy a ProDOS File to DOS Disk from ProDOS as well.

You can't make a DOS Boot Disk from ProDOS but you should be able to copy a DOS Boot Disk on ProDOS.

Or use a program like Copy II Plus (which runs on ProDOS) to copy DOS Disks.

I do not know if it works with images, however.

 

[raoulduke]

But Elfen my goal is to copy files from ProDOS archives to DOS 3.3 disks.  Remember your point was that none of the CPM disks will work if not in DOS 3.3, but the images they're in are all ProDOS archives.  So what you're saying appears to suggest I have no options, lol, right?

 

[Elfen]

Do you have a DOS 3.3 disk at all? If you do, you can format at least 1 "free" disk on DOS 3.3 and then load up ProDOS.

Then using ProDOS, copy the file(s) from where ever to the DOS. The problem is formatting a Disk into DOS 3.3. ProDOS can do it if the disk is already formatted for DOS but it can not format in DOS 3.3. there might be some special software that can do it, but I do not know it.

Another problem is setting up CP\M on DOS Disk. Format the Disk with the boot/DOS File in DOS 3.3 and then copy the CP\M files to it. One of those files has to be an "autoexec.bat' (or something similar) to boot CP\M into the system. It's a text file so you can read it with a text editor and see what files are needed. Only this disk will be in DOS.

If you have other disk images to copy in CP\M from ProDOS, you will need to format disks in CP\M and Apple DOS 3.3. Then from ProDOS copy the disks to DOS Disk. and then in CP\M file copy from Apple DOS Disks to the CP\M Disks.

Man, my brain is complaining about accessing memories that were compressed for long term storage a long time ago!

 

[raoulduke]

Oh okay.  GSOS can't copy to ProDOS; for whatever reason I assumed that extended to ProDOS.  I tried formatting a disk in DOS 3.3 and failed earlier so I'll try another disk (like physically another disk) later.  Let's see if I can get that far.  I appreciate the help!

 

[Elfen]

A bit of Apple History. This was going on at the time Woz was kicked out of Apple by Jobs who he called his friend. Jobs wanted the Mac to be Apple's only product. Woz wanted his Apple II Series to continue and be a cheaper and compatible version of the Mac (Mac IIs were going for over $4 grand, but an Apple IIgs went for $1200.) Thus when Woz and his team released GSOS, Jobs was highly insulted. He got rid of Woz, and took over his development team to the Mac side. Then he started to phase out the Apple II. But there was a problem - about 30% of Apple's profits were from the Apple II (IIe, IIc and IIgs) sales from schools and students. If he got rid of Apple IIs altogether all at once, he would lose all that money. So he babied the Apple II line for as long as he could, phasing out what he could over time until it was all gone. He even threw in the LC Apple IIe card to continue the Apple II sales and support though the IIe card was originally Woz's idea. Can you imagine an LC - Apple IIgs card?

Thus when GSOS was released, it was an extension of ProDOS. You would boot up ProDOS and then type in GSOS to get it going from the command line. But Jobs decided that later versions of GSOS would be auto-loading and removed the Apple DOS 3.3 Compatibility to have more space on the disk. He did have the IIgs improved in the last model but it wrecked compatibility with the older Apples. The last model IIgs was more Mac than Apple II. Even the last version of GSOS was 6.04, to coincide with Macintosh's System 6.

If you can find an old copy of Apple Works for the Apple II, it has the older version of ProDOS that might work for you. But I remember though this version of ProDOS was a 5.25" Disk and not a 3.5" Disk. If you can copy it to a 3.5" disk, you can use it on a IIgs. The problem still stands in having a DOS Disk to format a few 5.25" disks in DOS.

 

[Elfen]

Q: What Macs do you have? I'm just thinking if using an IIgs emulator would help you. Though Macintosh Garden links are not supported because of piracy issues, I remember Bernie ][ The Rescue being shareware and Gus being released by Apple for free. Thus I will put them here, if the admins delete it, I can understand...

Bernie ][ The Rescue: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/bernie-ii-the-rescue

Gus: http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/gus-10d4

Read the description and comments, there is some interesting tidbits that point out certain things, including a link to Apple (if it is still working) for free and complete ProDOS and GSOS downloads. This should help out.

There is also Bernie ][ The Rescue Software Anthology - which has software tools and other system programs for the IIgs along with the Bernie ][ Emulator. It is here:

http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/bernie-the-rescue-anthology-starter-kit-30

 

[raoulduke]

I have a bunch (of Macs).  But I'm not sure emulation is going to help here.  Basically there are two main images - one is about 239 sectors (? is that what that count is) and can fit on a 5.25" DOS 3.3 disk, but it isn't bootable... except from ProDOS.  The other is an 800k ProDOS disk that is only bootable as ProDOS.  That one boots fine and lets me run CPM3.SYSTEM (I think that's the right name).  That then gives me an error that I have no Z80 card.

When I try to enable the card in ProDOS or from an interrupt prompt I get various unusual responses but then subsequently can't get back to the disk.  This is all on normal speed mode.  I also found the manual, but I haven't read it yet.

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Interface%20Cards/Z80%20Cards/ALS%20CPM%20Card/

(the docu is for a later version, i think.  there are also 3 disks there called labeled *.cpm, but I don't think I can get that far if there's a hardware issue with the card.  i'll try putting it in another slot, i guess)

 

[raoulduke]

Maybe I was overly concentrating on the ALS CPM Card aspect and not enough on the fact that I have a Z-engine.  I now think that the software may be totally incompatible.

But the images on the apple2.org.za mirror of asimov don't seem to work.

 

[raoulduke]

Actually, though what I said is accurate, it looks like the software is basically the same.  I'm really at a loss here.  I think I need to go back to the IIe, but then I'm going to lose the 800k disk that actually boots.  There's also like 0 documentation on this...  The usenet stuff I've found seems to have no resolution.

Ironically the dude who wrote d2t or whatever that utility for converting .po to .dsk was (didn't know this when I contacted him) also looking for the manual about 10 years before me...