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Andy’s PowerBook Problem

AndyO

Well-known member
There's very little artifacting on this 180c display that I was able to see - I know what you mean, because I was looking at another with very distinct ghosting off contrast points in every window. I am looking forward to looking it over at a rather more leisurely pace.

It has 8Mb RAM, which is actually about all I need, though I'm not anticipating it being a routinely used system since I don't need color. I just thought it would be good to have one!

That's a good thought re the BlueSCSI. I know from replacing the HD in my 630 with a CF card that it actually improves performance in the sense that the system runs rather more smoothly, and really the 100 series isn't hard to work on, just fiddly, so I will likely experiment with a BlueSCSI or ZuluSCSI in one of them sooner rather than later when I open one up for some reason.

The 145B is running well, except of course for the ghosting. And I know I need to recap it (and the others too), but there's no hope I can do it myself at present. Sadly, I'm in a bit of a backwater for this kind of thing, so I don't think there's anyone local who could do it for me. But I do have a not-quite-dead 160 I could practice on!
 

AndyO

Well-known member
The 180c was delivered today - earlier than expected. Hinges are indeed in need of repair, and the system took ages to boot up for the first time, but it then ran quite well. Then after about 10 minutes I got flickering black lines of various thicknesses across the screen. I shut it down for an hour then rebooted it, and the screen was fine for a couple of minutes, and then the same.

I know, 're-cap it'. And indeed, I think when I take the display apart for the hinges, I will see if Thomas at @Amiga of Rochester can check it over and fix it, but is there anything this horizontal flickering black lines symptom could also be? @3lectr1cPPC mentioned corroded ribbon cable issues... is this a symptom of that?

Oddly, no fish smell and no ghosting on the display - it actually looked rather good!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Hmm. A video of this behavior would be helpful in determining what could cause it, but here's a few ideas.
- First off, bad caps usually cause bad artifacting or a washed out image. I never ran my 180c for more than a couple minutes before I recapped it, so I'm not sure what this image washing out would exactly look like, but probably not what you're describing. The guy I bought mine from said "it works fine for a little bit then it gets a little faded" (in fact, I got it from the VCF swap meet and got the whole thing on video here, but the filming isn't great). I never saw what that meant though. Not to say it isn't capacitor related though.
Here's an image of what the screen on my 180c looked like pre-recap. Notice the prominent artifacting:
929F6E2C-64F8-4C0E-A31B-707C93507CB2.jpeg

- My next idea would be an intermittent short caused by cap goo.
- It could also be a loose display ribbon, though I somewhat doubt this because I wouldn't think that would be time related.

As for LCD ribbons:
Captur3e.PNG
Here's a screenshot of a video I did fixing/recapping my PowerBook 145, I've highlighted one of the ribbons I'm referring to. These are different than the video signal ribbon cable from the computer to the LCD. These things take the video signal through an LCD driver chip direct into the LCD itself to power the pixels. If you've ever seen an old LCD with a big dead section, one of these chips embedded on the ribbons has failed. It could however also be caused by capacitor electrolyte getting inside of the ribbon and destroying it, which in that case, the display is toast. However, in either case it would only cause sections of the screen to die, not the entire thing after being running for a while like you've described.

I also did this thread detailing recapping my 180c display: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/powerbook-180c-display-recap.40344/

And for all your PowerBook capacitor reference needs: http://macdat.net/cap_reference.html
And the 180c page on my website specifically, with a reference photo. See all the electronics that the cap goo could be shorting!: http://macdat.net/cap_reference/apple/powerbook/180c.html

So basically, as you said, recap it before troubleshooting. If you've still got issues afterwards, then you're looking at some other problem. Hope this helps!
 

AndyO

Well-known member
That's very helpful, thanks!

I'll try and get a video tomorrow, though the hinges are definitely not cooperative. That said, I can hardly make them worse I suppose!

There's virtually no visible artefacting on the screen, and it is sharp and not faded color. This flickering looks like an intermittent connection, and the black lines are all different thicknesses, not in the same places across the screen. However, this doesn't start when the system is booted - at first the screen is totally clear, However, the problem begins fairly quickly, so I don't think it's heat because there doesn't seem time for that.

A short caused by cap goo sounds very plausible though, since that may manifest only after it has been running long enough to heat the goo a little.
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Yeah, that would be my first idea. And also, until you get the hinges fixed you should just store it open. Continuing the close and open it will the standoffs broken puts all of the stress of moving the metal hinges on the fragile screw wells on the front LCD bezel These will eventually break off, and then you're in trouble, as it's the plastic part that holds the halves together, if you get what I'm saying (These hold the screws in the front panel, there's just a big hole where they should be so securing them in doesn't attach them to the front bezel). It's hard to explain. This happened in the past to the PowerBook 150 I just bought , and even worse, that stress has caused the actual front bezel plastic to form a stress crack around the screw hole, similar to what's seen in the first image of this thread, although to a much more minor degree: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?thr...nent-brittle-plastics-screen-hinge-fix.42564/
I suspect it will get worse with use and I'll have to find a donor bezel eventually. Luckily the plastic "screw well" bit is stuck between the screw and the metal hinge, so I can probably save it with some glue, but the point is: don't operate the hinge until the standoffs are replaced or your 180c will end up like my poor 150.

Edit: Found this handy image on that thread I linked, I highlighted the bit I was talking about:
Modifications.png
Credit goes to PB170 for this image.
 

AndyO

Well-known member
I tried taking a video of the flickering problem - this is a short example. The faded area around the trash and the lower part of the screen isn't visible in person. Typically, the display looks bright and fairly vivid. Not much artefacting either, though some does appear with some of the flickering.

The flickering does sometimes stop, and the screen remains stable, but restarts, sometimes just pressing a few keys (vibration I think).

View attachment IMG_2743.MOV
 

CC_333

Well-known member
I don't have any recent experience here, but I'll try:

To me, that looks like a flaky connection somewhere, not necessary cap goo (again, I don't have much recent experience, so it could be; last time I dealt with 100-series PBs (gosh, almost 10 years ago now), caps weren't such an issue, so there was no reason for me to consider them problematic). The display cable wraps around one of the hinges as it makes its way from the base to the lid, and sometimes it will form breaks because of all the wear it receives (this is exacerbated when said hings breaks, which can cause the cable to tear).

This doesn't quite explain why it's intermittent and only happens after a few minutes, though, but it settling down and then recurring when you type is an interesting clue. Perhaps it's a simple as a loose connection somewhere? (at least on the 140, the display ribbon cable connects somewhere in the vicinity of the upper right of the keyboard, if I remember correctly).

Do the flickering lines change (improve, worsen) when the display is carefully moved back and forth?

c
 

AndyO

Well-known member
I'm not convinced about eh cap-goo possibility either because I don't see how that could result in such a highly variable and changing fault. Of course, I don't know that it couldn't either, but that and the fact there seems very little artifacting on the display does make me think it is something else than caps.

Moving the display doesn't seem to affect the issue as far as I can tell, but the left hand hinge which the cable wraps around is certainly in a very bad state, which means it's entirely possible the cable has been damaged.

But yes, it looks very much like something loose, because I wouldn't have thought a constant such as goo or a damaged cable would cause such a variable symptom.

I will have to take it apart fairly soon, of course, and that might reveal possible causes.
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
ah, I thought that the display went totally dark or something. That’s a loose cable or an intermittent short. I’d guess it’s cap related for sure, but we’ll see I suppose. If the cable was broken, nothing would display, you’d get a white screen. My 5300ce’s cable slightly tore, lose about 3 traces and the whole thing is white, no image. And wiggling the cable around the torn area doesn’t get any image to show up so if it’s tore, some area would be permanently dead.
 

Paralel

Well-known member
Hmm. A video of this behavior would be helpful in determining what could cause it, but here's a few ideas.
- First off, bad caps usually cause bad artifacting or a washed out image. I never ran my 180c for more than a couple minutes before I recapped it, so I'm not sure what this image washing out would exactly look like, but probably not what you're describing. The guy I bought mine from said "it works fine for a little bit then it gets a little faded" (in fact, I got it from the VCF swap meet and got the whole thing on video here, but the filming isn't great). I never saw what that meant though. Not to say it isn't capacitor related though.
Here's an image of what the screen on my 180c looked like pre-recap. Notice the prominent artifacting:
View attachment 51446

- My next idea would be an intermittent short caused by cap goo.
- It could also be a loose display ribbon, though I somewhat doubt this because I wouldn't think that would be time related.

As for LCD ribbons:
View attachment 51445
Here's a screenshot of a video I did fixing/recapping my PowerBook 145, I've highlighted one of the ribbons I'm referring to. These are different than the video signal ribbon cable from the computer to the LCD. These things take the video signal through an LCD driver chip direct into the LCD itself to power the pixels. If you've ever seen an old LCD with a big dead section, one of these chips embedded on the ribbons has failed. It could however also be caused by capacitor electrolyte getting inside of the ribbon and destroying it, which in that case, the display is toast. However, in either case it would only cause sections of the screen to die, not the entire thing after being running for a while like you've described.

I also did this thread detailing recapping my 180c display: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/powerbook-180c-display-recap.40344/

And for all your PowerBook capacitor reference needs: http://macdat.net/cap_reference.html
And the 180c page on my website specifically, with a reference photo. See all the electronics that the cap goo could be shorting!: http://macdat.net/cap_reference/apple/powerbook/180c.html

So basically, as you said, recap it before troubleshooting. If you've still got issues afterwards, then you're looking at some other problem. Hope this helps!

A chip in a ribbon? I can't imagine what they were thinking. That just seems like the absolute worst idea for designing something robust.
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Yeah, not great. If one of those dies then it’s game over for the whole screen. Happens all the time on the 150 and 190 screens.
 

AndyO

Well-known member
This one I didn't mean to buy, but I got too irked by a bidder on eBay to realize I'd bid more than I intended. Serves me right, but barely 24 hours later, this arrived....

IMG_2747.jpg

I have never seen one of these before, and barely heard anything about them. A PowerBook 2400c/180, which aside from melted feet is in pretty excellent condition. And yes, the battery does hold a charge - the system runs about 30 minutes on it.

It's a sub-notebook in the traditions of the Duo range, but with a reasonably good -if small- scissor-switch keyboard. 4.4 pounds makes it feel improbably light and almost toy like, but since it has a 180MHz 603e it does have a surprising amount of grunt. This is stock, with just 16Mb RAM and 1.3Gb HD, but is rather nice to work on.

It came with an external floppy drive, which works, though I've been using CF cards in a CardBus adapter which not very conveniently plugs in round the back. It also only seems to read PC formatted cards, though it will format a card and mount it, but that card is then not readable by my modern Macs. Not had time to investigate this yet, and other than installing software and possibly moving files around, it's not very important.

A curious, and pleasantly usable little PowerBook!
 

KnobsNSwitches

Well-known member
I'm a big fan of the 2400. I don't know what sort of witchcraft went into those early lion batteries, but every single 2400 battery I've ever come across still holds a usable charge.
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
IT WAS YOU?!?!?
Hah! I didn't bid, too much right now, but wow! This one NEEDS TO HAVE THE PRAM BATTERY REMOVED!!! They're rare as hen's teeth and those batteries kill them all. Problem is they're a nightmare to take apart, so you may have trouble. Whatever the case it absolutely needs to be done if you want it to keep running. They sold very few of these 2400 models in the US and they're the rarest PowerBook aside from the Japan exclusive 550c. That's to say, it's a special one. Enjoy it.

Also fun fact, IBM designed these!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Not sure. Every part inside is peppered with IBM part numbers though. You can definitely see their engineering at work either way. Better built hinges, solid polymer caps, etc. I'll bet Apple designed the aesthetics though. No way IBM came up with that mustache trackpad button. I desperately want one, will have to save up in a bit. ThinkPads are my favorite PC laptops, and PowerBooks are my favorite laptops, who could say no to both combined? And it's a subnotebook! With a socketed processor! It just goes on...
 

AndyO

Well-known member
It is a beautifully built system, and shows few of the common signs of laptops from that era. I'm yet to actually get it into use, so I don't know how cramped the keyboard is for my needs, but the display is of course excellent, and it is remarkably responsive.... except not 'remarkably' really since it's in roughly the same performance class as the 3400.

I grabbed a copy of the service manual while I was waiting for it to arrive, and that did rather put me off. It doesn't use any of the construction/design metaphors Apple used in all the other systems, and it does look extremely fiddly to get it apart. I'd like to add more RAM though, so I guess I'll have to at some point, even if for no other reason.

I knew it was quite rare to find one of these, and they had a bit of a cult following in Japan so I was curious enough to look at the eBay listing, but it seemed a bit extravagant - though it wasn't too bad all things considered. I'm very pleased with it!

The fact the battery still holds a charge was a shock - it was packed separately, so when I slid it in, I was not expecting a chine and the system to come to life. I hadn't even flipped open the screen by the time it had booted!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Biggest thing to worry about during disassembly from what I've heard is getting the CPU card seated properly when reassembling. I don't have one so I can't say exactly how it's constructed, but I have heard many stories of people getting them all back together just to have the green light of death thanks to an improperly seated CPU card. Get on that RAM upgrade quickly though, that PRAM battery won't wait for you to take it apart before it leaks!

Here's a good video on it. I *think* it goes over how some higher capacity RAM upgrades need to be specially designed for this model to work. I forget which ones, but I think that anything higher than 64(?)MB needs to be or it won't work. Lower capacity modules will work fine (standard EDO laptop RAM).
 

AndyO

Well-known member
Thanks! I'll watch that video shortly, because that should help make more sense out of the service manual, which isn't the easiest to follow - and that guy is pretty good.

I won't need a particularly big RAM upgrade, so likely no larger than maybe 32Mb. Even then, it runs reasonably well as it is, so other than the PRAM battery, I'm not in a hurry. Just as well, because being in a hurry won't make it any more of a practical job for me to do! Getting software on it is my priority today. And cleaning the goo off the bottom where the feet used to be.
 

Durosity

Well-known member
I’d love to get a 2400.. it’s the only form factor of PowerBook that I’m missing from my collection! That one looks like a beauty!
 
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