*Almost* Fastest PowerBook ever, and more to go.

[asaggynoodle]

I think you're totally on to something here. I for sure thought the new MacBook was going to be ARM based. Looks like Intel managed to pull the Core-M out of their hats just in time. 

All Apple really needs (And everyone else) is a Co-Processor that is solely in charge of Static (Dynamic) Recompilation for x86-ARMHF at the OS level. That way they could bridge the gap between MacOS and iOS with no overhead. There are companies like those who made Eltechs Exagears, that can do native x86 run times on ARM at like ~96% of native performance. That more than likely wont ever happen, as that is a lot of effort. But it would be game changing, something apple needs (a game changer). Although similarly, Android/ChromeOS are basically becoming one. So it goes to show that with enough effort you CAN break down these barriers (Not the same, but still a big deal). At the end of the day, if ARM keeps going the way they are, it may be a matter of years before Apple does even more with ARM besides phones/tablets. If anything, looking at the iPad Pro starts to show the need for x86 level professional software, as the Hardware is already more than there. People (Real professionals) want to do real work on these platforms. 

 

[TheWhiteFalcon]

Core M's problem? Intel's tray price on it is $281 a pop. I'm sure Apple gets a better price, but I doubt it's *that* much better, and Apple doesn't have to make a profit on their A-series chips, which are estimated to cost $20-$40 a pop to manufacture. But I think any ARM move is five years away, at least. 

 

[asaggynoodle]

I think when you have the buying power of Apple, you get some pretty deep discounts. You have to figure at least a 2.5x markup from BOM/Product Placement/R&D costs. I'd be willing to bet the whole Mainboard with all of the components probably costs around ~150-200$ per unit. The thing with ARM is that you have to pay the upfront cost of the IP Licensing which for a company like apple is probably around ~$10-$15 Million, then around 1-2% (of chip cost) in royalties per chip made. Talk about a Cash Cow. Although, when you have the volume to push product like Apple, I'm more than sure you can get them to sweeten the pot.

 

[TheWhiteFalcon]

Well, the thing is, that $281 is the tray price, not any kind of retail price. That's their price when you're buying them by the thousands. And Intel likes their margins just like Apple does. 

Even if they sell it to Apple for $120 a chip, that's still a good deal that can be saved. 

 

[techknight]

I don't see why Apple wouldn't have made a mockup or a G5 laptop. IBM made a Thinkpad with a full blown desktop P4 and managed to cool it (G40/G41 series).

I used to have a Clevo/Jetbook (made by foxconn I think) laptop back in the day that had a desktop P4 2.0 in it. That thing would put off some serious heat. I think even some of the early Silver/Gray dells had desktop P4 chips. But they didnt last long. Market, or longevity. Motherboards failed alot. 

 

[commodorejohn]

Hell, even the laptop P4s were terrible in the thermal department. The P4m laptop I used to own got hot enough that when the power supply went nova and actually melted the plastic tip on the plug in the process, I didn't actually notice for about ten minutes.

 

[Unknown_K]

The Laptop P4M running over 2ghz do get warm, you need a decent working fan for them. One of my Thinkpads has a P4M 2.4ghz and the fan is on quite a bit.

 

[Daniël]

I have very good reason to believe that the original poster does not in fact have a 7448 processor in his Powerbook as he claims.

Please see my full write-up on the subject at this link, and I certainly invite the OP to refute any statements which I've made.

http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2ghz-powerbook.1977301/page-2#post-23036065

I find it rather odd that even all this time later, this has been so glossed over. OP clearly faked using a 7448. Reaching 2GHz on a 7447B isn't that hard, as proven by this iMac G4. Why @asaggynoodle felt like faking he had a 7448 is beyond me. Maybe to screw with the owner of EveryMac, as they posted his fake nonsense verbatim? Anyways, @dosdude1 has real 7448s, so we can finally see some non-faked 7448 action not too far from now  

 

[techknight]

Why would you dig up a 2 year old thread, and then call someone out? Really?

 

[MOS8_030]

CSB:

I worked at Freescale qualifying the 7448.  (And the 7447, 7450/55, 7410)

Apple kept Freescale on the hook for the 7448 right up to the bitter end, stringing FS along having them believe Apple was going to use the 7448.

At one point I was corresponding via email with an Apple engineer trying to get a firmware update for the P58 mobo's so I could run the Apple test suite and OSX with the 7448.

My email got forwarded to about three other people within Apple because they had already pulled the resources from the team that maintained their PPC test suite.

One of the Apple recipients replied with something like "Why do we need this? We're not using A8 (Apollo 8 ) and hit reply all so I was copied too.

My phone rang literally about 30 seconds after I received the email. It was the Apple engineer I had been corresponding with hastening to explain that I should ignore this particular reply and they were working to get me the firmware update I asked for.

I did get the OF update about three days later and about two weeks later FS got the "official" word that Apple would not be using the 7448. 

(Even though despite Apple's efforts it was apparent to FS long before that Apple wasn't going to use the A8. )

Anyway, I have some photos of the P58 (G4 MDD) test rigs I used at work. I should dig those out. They're hardly proprietary now.

/csb

 

[Zippy Zapp]

That would be awesome.  Have any extra unpackaged G4s laying around?   :wink:

 

[LightBulbFun]

CSB:

I worked at Freescale qualifying the 7448.  (And the 7447, 7450/55, 7410)

Apple kept Freescale on the hook for the 7448 right up to the bitter end, stringing FS along having them believe Apple was going to use the 7448.

At one point I was corresponding via email with an Apple engineer trying to get a firmware update for the P58 mobo's so I could run the Apple test suite and OSX with the 7448.

My email got forwarded to about three other people within Apple because they had already pulled the resources from the team that maintained their PPC test suite.

One of the Apple recipients replied with something like "Why do we need this? We're not using A8 (Apollo 8 ) and hit reply all so I was copied too.

My phone rang literally about 30 seconds after I received the email. It was the Apple engineer I had been corresponding with hastening to explain that I should ignore this particular reply and they were working to get me the firmware update I asked for.

I did get the OF update about three days later and about two weeks later FS got the "official" word that Apple would not be using the 7448. 

(Even though despite Apple's efforts it was apparent to FS long before that Apple wasn't going to use the A8. )

Anyway, I have some photos of the P58 (G4 MDD) test rigs I used at work. I should dig those out. They're hardly proprietary now.

/csb

thats some very cool information!

id be very interested in seeing pictures of the whole setup, its interesting how you used MDDs as test beds, im guessing Motorola made up custom CPU cards for the 7448s 360CBGA foot print? (as the stock MDDs use 7455s which are 483 CBGA packages)

im very interested in hearing your stories as I have been doing a lot of work and research into PowerPC CPUs and upgrading various Macs with faster ones

which you can read about here 



I also have a few posts on Mac Rumors about my PPC CPU Upgrading adventures

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/making-a-g4-pismo-upgrade-at-home.2019269/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/diy-g4-cpu-upgrade-round-2-putting-the-power-into-flowerpower.2040272/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/replacing-the-pearl-in-the-clamshell-diy-ibook-g3-clamshell-g4-cpu-upgrade.2105654/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/bussing-around-with-a-g3-beige-xpc106-memory-controller-upgrade.2119510/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/show-us-your-chips.2127981/

I also helped dosdude1 with his iMac G4 upgrade project https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/worlds-fastest-imac-g4-2-ghz-imac-g4-cpu-upgrade.2125765/

BTW do you happen to have any Schematics for Apple desktop machines?

I have quite a few PowerPC Laptop schematics but nothing for Apple desktop machines or CPU cards (the only desktop schematics I have are for iMac G4s and iMac G5s 

I would love to get some as it would help imensly with my research and upgrade projects

 

[MOS8_030]

Yes, Motorola had their own daughter cards. They used a socket that could accept a BGA part.

I have some photos of the card we used with the P58 motherboards on my other computer, I'm out of town right now.

Here's a photo of two systems I set up to do accelerated life testing with the 7448.

I cranked up the voltage and the temperature and and ran the parts non stop for about three months to induce voltage threshold shifts.

 

[Daniël]

Very glad that this myth of Apple using 7448s in their PowerBooks has been debunked in such a cool way! Really interesting to see the behind-the-scenes of the PowerPC Mac development days.

 

[LightBulbFun]

thats so Awesome to see

did you have to run a Custom build of OS X along-side the custom Mobo FW when testing the 7448 CPUs? because AFAIK no version of OS X has native 7448 CPU

(CPU Upgrade companies who sold 7448 upgrades for PMs got around this via either Firmware patches that masked the 7448 as a 7455, or via a special NVRAM patch)

we used the NVRAM patch for when we fitted the 7448 CPU to the 7445 iMac, as the Firmware patch we used to get the machine to POST with the 7448 CPU, only removes the Halt on unknown CPU thing apple has, it does not patch anything else, so to get OS X to boot on the 7448 we had to use the NVRAM patch from one of the CPU upgrade companies.

also out of sheer curiosity and research etc, do you have the Custom Firmware apple provided that let the MDDs Boot with the 7448 CPUs? I would love to play with that  also reading the Schematics for the DLSD PowerBooks I had theorised that they where going to use 7448s but switched back to 7447Bs at the 11th hour, its pretty cool to see that I was indeed on the right path, but I wonder do you think the DLSD still has 7448 support in Firmware? (I know New world ROM PowerPC macs will Halt on POST if they detect a CPU with an unknown PVR otherwise)

I just wanted to say again how awesome this all is

im quite passionate about PowerPC (Apple) stuff esp the very technical side of things, so this is just beyond awesome and I cant wait to see more  

thank you very much for sharing what you have

 

[Hrutkay Mods]

I just made an account to confirm that Collin Mistr aka @dosdude1 and I will be doing a real 7448 swap into my 15” in a few months time! It’s gonna be a sweet collab

 

[hoi polloi]

I cranked up the voltage and the temperature and and ran the parts non stop for about three months to induce voltage threshold shifts.

I also joined because of this thread.  Thank you for posting MOS8_030!  How much heat/voltage could the 7448 survive in your tests?  I would like to hear more of these insider details if possible.  Is there any chance of getting some ideas on the firmware changes needed to run the 7448?  That seems to be the main issue with trying to transplant them into powerbooks.

 

[Paralel]

I guess the only way to settle the matter of what processor is in a given system is a to take a pic. If the processor in said system is a 7448, it will be obvious, and there are enough people that work with static and motion media around here that we could collectively sniff out a fake a mile away.

Edit: Nevermind, saw the most pathetic photochop in the world over in the MR thread. That's the end of that story.

 

[hoi polloi]

I like the 12" powerbooks and I've done the possible upgrades.  I took one apart and swapped the chip with a slightly better one and was able to get 1.83GHz that's stable and not too hot.  These chips will usually do 2+ GHz but they take more voltage and put out more heat, so 1.83 seems to be about the limit for the 12" from my experiments.  DFS still works, so that's pretty nice when on the battery.  I'd really like to do this swap with a 7448, but I'm stuck on the firmware.  Can anyone help?

 

[MOS8_030]

I also joined because of this thread.  Thank you for posting MOS8_030!  How much heat/voltage could the 7448 survive in your tests?  I would like to hear more of these insider details if possible.  Is there any chance of getting some ideas on the firmware changes needed to run the 7448?  That seems to be the main issue with trying to transplant them into powerbooks.

My memory is hazy but I think the voltage was 1.5v and the temp was 110c.  Apple supplied the firmware patch. I have searched my "archives" and I can't find any copies of the Apple software. In addition to the firmware update we also had a hardware test suite that ran in in OF.