PowerMac G4 Gigabit 500mhz Dual-Processor Server: Come help me max it out -- on a budget!

I’d like to do some budget friendly upgrades to my Gigabit PowerMac G4 500mhz dual-processor.

I’ve been working on getting ready to thin out my Macintosh collection, and this machine is one of the few I’m keeping (along with a Plus and Tangerine Clamshell). I think its a great platform to experience the Steve Jobs Apple renaissance era, as it has the iconic plastics/acrylic design language from that era, and it can host a number of OS choices from MacOS 9, and all of the official OS X PPC releases up to 10.5 Leopard.

Current hardware state:

* 500mhz dual processors
* 256mb ram
* 18gb SCSI hard drive
* Rage 128 Pro ADC/VGA graphics card


What I’d like to do some budget friendly upgrades. Here’s my ideas:

* Max out memory to 2gb
* Overclock CPU
* Upgrade to best ADC video card compatible with OS 9 support
* Potential SCSI RAID array
* Larger IDE hard drive
* SSD drive
* ??????

Would love some ideas of other potential upgrades.

Currently this G4 is running off a 18.1 gb 10k rpm Quantum Atlas hard drive. This is connected to an ATTO ExpressPCI PSC (0042-PCBX-002) SCSI controller. I believe this is a Ultra 2 SCSI controller.

I have an additional Seagate Barracude 18gb SCSI drive, but it only runs at 7200 rpm.

I'm not very versed in all of the modern SCSI protocols, and not sure what would be needed for RAID controller. Separate physical connector for each channel? The ATTO card uses a Symbios Logic chip (53C875) looks that it supports RAID features. While the card has two internal connectors (and an external), one is a 68 pin(?) and the other is a 50 pin.

I assume I would need a card with two internal 68 pin connectors. And also assume that for optimal throughput getting another 10k rpm hard drive would be the better option than mismatching two different drive speeds.

I have 2 Sawtooths that I upgraded to dual 500 G4s (so basically the same thing as your machine).

Max RAM should be cheap and easy to get. I run OSX 10.4.x on mine, maybe a second HD for OS 9.2.2. Radeon 9000 Mac cards should still be around if you use an ADC monitor (I have one) if not DVI.

You could get a SATA card, but they are a bit pricey unless you mod a PC card. I just use a decent sized EIDE HD and call it a day.

If you are going to use a SCSI card get a PCI-X model Adaptec so you at least have more bandwidth then generic PCI. I would recommend an external SCSI 68 pin enclosure if you want to play with RAID.

This sounds like a fun project. The CPUs could probably overclock to 550MHz. RAM and SSD are pretty cheap these days. A radeon 9000 from a MDD would have ADC and shouldn't cost too much--I have no idea about OS9 though. I think there is a version of the GF4 that is supposed to be the ultimate OS9 card, but I think they're expensive/rare. I know almost nothing about SCSI, but if you want to play with RAID this was not too expensive:

68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/g4-raid.40817/

Let us know how it goes!

+1 fun project!

Do you have a specific target OS for it?


Random thoughts, maybe not super well structured, yes I spent 3/4 of the post on storage options, oops!

"What makes a good OS 9 machine" and "what makes a good OS X machine" (and linux/bsd) are almost mutually exclusive, because, for example, there's a vanishingly slim opportunity you'll ever need more than 512MB of RAM for OS 9 or that you'll ever notice the difference between a 500MHz and 1500MHz CPU under OS 9, but going to 2GB of RAM and having duallies can be meaningful under OS X.

The same thing is true of graphics, especially if you're looking at potentially running 10.4/5 and some of the later OSXPPC software and want, say, CoreImage..

For storage, one thing to look at is to price out SATA cards. If you're focusing on OS X, 4-port cards that support big disks should be pretty cheap, the 9-compatible cards are likely to go for a little bit more and are AFAIK exclusively available in 2-port versions, and IIRC the cards themselves have a 2TB max volume limit.

SATA itself is faster than what the PCI link can do and most modern hard disks can saturate a gigabit or so, so in terms of raw transfer speed you really don't need a RAID. OS X should run reasonably on a modern hard disk.

• (possibly even an SMR one provided you have enough cache, the writes our computers were doing in 2002 are on a fairly different scale than the writes we do today in 2022)
• (but at 2TB I don't know that it's worth looking for an SMR disk unless you have something like an early Intel Mac mini and want to optimize for internal capacity on a budget)
• (The crossover point for when Mac OS X became SSD-mandatory is a couple years after 10.6, I wouldn't argue if someone said 10.10 or so.)
• (lots of this depends on what you're using the machine for, if you wanted an OS X server, getting an X-compatible SATA card and slamming a small boot SSD and one or two 16TB data HDDs in could make sense, for example, but if you just want something as a client and aren't planning on anything data-intensive like a music/video collection, then maybe a midrange ~128-256 gig SSD is a better choice than a hard disk, esp. for OS X responsiveness because OS X shoudl benefit from it regardless)
• (it occurs to me this is actually something I can test!)
• (os9 max volume size is 2tb but max boot volume size is like 200gb so you'd end up with like 100gb boot+apps then [rest of disk] data, but non-boot disks can be a full 2tb)
• (osx varies by version, 10.2/3 have 8tb max volumes and 10.4 has 16tb, either 10.8 or 10.6 expanded that again and in 10.6+ the volume limit for HFS+ is "higher than is currently practical on a single machine, even a really big one")
• (os9 up to 2tb usb/fw HDDs, osx should work with bigger up to the limits above)
• (the onboard IDE in this machine has a limit of "like 137 or so" gigs but honestly an IDE<>SATA adapter and a 128-gig SSD (or even a 256-gig SSD formatted down/short-stroked, which would give the SSD wear leveling room I suppose)
• (or an IDE<> CF or SD adapter for OS9)
• (if this is enough space your 18gb/7200rpm disk should actually be good enough for this machine, that's roughly contemporary with this machine anyway)

To make something that's good at both, you'll end up either optimizing for OS X and then be leaving most of the capability and capacity of the machine on the table while you're booted into 9, or you'll end up splitting the difference and making something that's not quite as good at OS X as it could be.

This is perhaps less fun but my general advice is that you probably don't need to tiptop it unless you want to cosplay what using the machine at the very end of its reasonable lifespan would have been. Cosplaying a PowerMac G4 owner in like 2010 could be fun, I suppose, but I'll admit I tend to get more out of cosplaying things in early-mid lifecycle, but but i'll also admit to liking the fact that SATA cards and 2TB hard disks are cheap, so it's kind of a preferences and aesthetics question, I suppose.

After sorting through the parts containers, this is what I currently have on hand for upgrades:

• Julia audio interface/soundcard PCI card
• Quantum Atlas 18gb @10,000 RPM SCSI server drive
• Seagate Barracuda 18gb @7,200 RPM SCSI drive
• Western DigitalCaviar 120GB @7200RPM ATA-100 w/ 8MB Cache
• Apple DVD-RAM drive (Matsushits LF-D11A)
• LG 22x/48x DVD-RW w/ Lightscribe(!) (GH22LP20)
• Mounting plates sleds for the hard drives
• SIIG USB 2.0/Firewire 800 PCI card
• ATTO ExpressPCI PSC Ultra2(?) SCSI PCI controller
• 2x 512mb PC-133 RAM
• Nvidia Geforce MX2 ADC/VGA AGP video card (Apple branded -- Quicksilver pillage)

Debating on the DVD-RAM drive for it's esoteric-ness, or the more practical LG DVD-RW.

I have 2 Sawtooths that I upgraded to dual 500 G4s (so basically the same thing as your machine).
[/QUOTE]

Nice. Right, aside from the ethernet speed (and probably some minor motherboard revisions) they're basically the same difference. Yours will be a good reference if I run into issues.

Max RAM should be cheap and easy to get. I run OSX 10.4.x on mine, maybe a second HD for OS 9.2.2. Radeon 9000 Mac cards should still be around if you use an ADC monitor (I have one) if not DVI.

Click to expand...

Have 2x 512mb PC133 sticks, and plan on going full 2gb. I'll need to hunt down another pair, but should be relatively inexpensive. :crossfingers.emoji:

Current hard drive situation is 18gb @10,000 RPM SCSI Atlas server drive, a 18gb @7,200 RPM SCSI Barracuda, and a Western DigitalCaviar 120GB @7200RPM ATA-100 w/ 8MB Cache.

I have a Nvideo GeForce MX2 ADC/VGA card. I did a search for Geforce MX2 vs Radeon 9000 to see how close the GeForce MX2 comes. Looks like the Radeon is a noticeably better card. But I'll make do with the GeForce MX2 until I hunt one down.

And I do have use for the ADC. I have the 17" ADC flat panel Studio Display.

You could get a SATA card, but they are a bit pricey unless you mod a PC card. I just use a decent sized EIDE HD and call it a day.

If you are going to use a SCSI card get a PCI-X model Adaptec so you at least have more bandwidth then generic PCI. I would recommend an external SCSI 68 pin enclosure if you want to play with RAID.

Click to expand...

Plan is to run the WD Caviar as the primary on the main IDE bus, and add an IDE/SATA adapter to the secondary cable position for the SSD.

PCI-X cards are PCI backward compatible, correct? Need to do some homework on the most appropriate SCSI card for my needs.

I have a Sun SCSI RAID enclosure I played around with. But I want to keep this G4 as contained as possible. My RAID array would be a simple striped RAID 0.

herd said:

This sounds like a fun project. The CPUs could probably overclock to 550MHz. RAM and SSD are pretty cheap these days. A radeon 9000 from a MDD would have ADC and shouldn't cost too much--I have no idea about OS9 though. I think there is a version of the GF4 that is supposed to be the ultimate OS9 card, but I think they're expensive/rare. I know almost nothing about SCSI, but if you want to play with RAID this was not too expensive:

68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/g4-raid.40817/

Let us know how it goes!

Click to expand...

Thanks! I think it will be pretty fun to trick it out a bit.

I was reading about overclocking and it looks fairly straightforward. I was thinking about experimenting with a circuit writer pen to see what I can overclock to before committing to a soldering a resistor in place. Consensus seems 550mhz is a very stable overclock place for 500mz rated G4. Not sure if I'll want to risk going higher.

I think the top-out Radeon for OS 9 is the Radeon 9200. The Radeon 9000 is quasi-cutdown 8500 w/ ADC added. But it seems to be definitively better than the GeForce MX2 I found. I'll be on the lookout for one.

I scanned the linked RAID thread. This is an area where I'm going to need to research a bit more.

macinbot said:

I was thinking about experimenting with a circuit writer pen to see what I can overclock to before committing to a soldering a resistor in place.

Click to expand...

If the pen is like what I've seen, don't do this, its harder to remove than solder...

If it is removal, I'd be interested to know what you have in mind?

Cory5412 said:

+1 fun project!

Do you have a specific target OS for it?

Click to expand...

Thanks!

The intention is to set this machine up as a MacOS / OS X PowerPC time capsule. This is how I see the OS setup and their drives:

• Striped RAID 0 Quantum Atlas HDs 2x partition with:
  • Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger
  • MacOS 9

• 120gb Western Digital Caviar individually partitioned and installed with:
  • MacOS 9
  • Rhapsody Developer Release 1
  • Rhapsody Developer Release 2
  • Mac OS X Server
  • Mac OS X 10.0 Cheetah
  • 10.1 Puma
  • 10.2 Jaguar
  • 10.3 Panther
  • 10.4 Tiger
  • 10.5 Leopard

MacOS 8.6?

I would like to figure out if there's an Open Firmware mod that will allow an install of MacOS 8.6 -- seems probable considering the motherboard is so close to the Sawtooth (which shipped with 8.6).

The SSD would mirror the Caviar HD.

The Quantum Atlas RAID is kind of silly, but old-school me wants the bragging rights of 2x 10,000 RPM server drives in RAID 0 in a workstation. And the absolutely obnoxious drive seeking sounds are just great!

In reality, any long session will probably boot from the SSD for heat and audio sanity sake.

Random thoughts, maybe not super well structured, yes I spent 3/4 of the post on storage options, oops!

"What makes a good OS 9 machine" and "what makes a good OS X machine" (and linux/bsd) are almost mutually exclusive, because, for example, there's a vanishingly slim opportunity you'll ever need more than 512MB of RAM for OS 9 or that you'll ever notice the difference between a 500MHz and 1500MHz CPU under OS 9, but going to 2GB of RAM and having duallies can be meaningful under OS X.

Click to expand...

I feel you on the juxtapostion of resource use and need between MacOS 9 and OS X. And for sure on the dual-processor being overkill for OS 9. OS 9 has been generally very snappy on anything G3 and up for me.

And even OS X up through Tiger is typically pretty responsive. In the past I ran it with 1gb ram on a 500mhz iMac G3, and it was absolutely usable. But bumping up to Leopard, or doing anything processor intensive (like audio recording) and I know those dual procs will be pulling their weight.

The same thing is true of graphics, especially if you're looking at potentially running 10.4/5 and some of the later OSXPPC software and want, say, CoreImage..

Click to expand...

Right, most of my OS 9 time I assume will be playing older System 7 era games. Even OS 9 game era wasn't that far advanced for 3D (a lot of CPU doing the lifting if I recall). So even the GeForce MX2 will probably way overkill for most anything I throw at it.

For storage, one thing to look at is to price out SATA cards. If you're focusing on OS X, 4-port cards that support big disks should be pretty cheap, the 9-compatible cards are likely to go for a little bit more and are AFAIK exclusively available in 2-port versions, and IIRC the cards themselves have a 2TB max volume limit.

SATA itself is faster than what the PCI link can do and most modern hard disks can saturate a gigabit or so, so in terms of raw transfer speed you really don't need a RAID. OS X should run reasonably on a modern hard disk.

Click to expand...

The RAID idea is strictly because of the bombasticness of 2x 10,000 RPM SCSI drives and their ADHD seeking noise. For SATA, I'd skip any dedicated PCI cards and just use an IDE/SATA adapter of the secondary IDE connector on the cable. I figure the IDE bus would be saturated long before the SSD gets taxed. There's no practical need for IDE or SATA RAID. But is any of this hobby particularly practical though?

[*](lots of this depends on what you're using the machine for, if you wanted an OS X server, getting an X-compatible SATA card and slamming a small boot SSD and one or two 16TB data HDDs in could make sense, for example, but if you just want something as a client and aren't planning on anything data-intensive like a music/video collection, then maybe a midrange ~128-256 gig SSD is a better choice than a hard disk, esp. for OS X responsiveness because OS X shoudl benefit from it regardless)

Click to expand...

This project is strictly a retro computer nostalgia build. The only real server aspect of this is the fact that it was sold as a server. So for me it's just a fun way to have all these OS snapshots in one machine.

[*](os9 max volume size is 2tb but max boot volume size is like 200gb so you'd end up with like 100gb boot+apps then [rest of disk] data, but non-boot disks can be a full 2tb)

Click to expand...

Between OS 9 and 10.4, I like to think I won't run out of space for what I would be running from the 120gb Caviar. And so hopefully won't need worry about the 200gb ceiling.

[*](osx varies by version, 10.2/3 have 8tb max volumes and 10.4 has 16tb, either 10.8 or 10.6 expanded that again and in 10.6+ the volume limit for HFS+ is "higher than is currently practical on a single machine, even a really big one")
[*](os9 up to 2tb usb/fw HDDs, osx should work with bigger up to the limits above)

[*](the onboard IDE in this machine has a limit of "like 137 or so" gigs but honestly an IDE<>SATA adapter and a 128-gig SSD (or even a 256-gig SSD formatted down/short-stroked, which would give the SSD wear leveling room I suppose)
[*](or an IDE<> CF or SD adapter for OS9)
[*](if this is enough space your 18gb/7200rpm disk should actually be good enough for this machine, that's roughly contemporary with this machine anyway)

Click to expand...

The 18gb Atlas drive did ship with this machine because of its server configuration. Absolutely era correct.

The OS X install are things I'll need to plan out a little bit. From Rhapsody DR1 through Panther, and all the pertinent software I want to install, I think I should fall under the 8gb boot ceiling.

For the SSD it would be mirroring the 120gb Caviar, so whatever is available in that size should be just fine. I like to think most modern SSDs to a decent job of wear leveling nowadays. :fingercrossing.emoji:

To make something that's good at both, you'll end up either optimizing for OS X and then be leaving most of the capability and capacity of the machine on the table while you're booted into 9, or you'll end up splitting the difference and making something that's not quite as good at OS X as it could be.

This is perhaps less fun but my general advice is that you probably don't need to tiptop it unless you want to cosplay what using the machine at the very end of its reasonable lifespan would have been. Cosplaying a PowerMac G4 owner in like 2010 could be fun, I suppose, but I'll admit I tend to get more out of cosplaying things in early-mid lifecycle, but but i'll also admit to liking the fact that SATA cards and 2TB hard disks are cheap, so it's kind of a preferences and aesthetics question, I suppose.

Click to expand...

I agree that there will be some compromise for wanting to maintain OS 9 compatibility. Video card choice is certainly one of them. Radeon 9200 looks like the top-end for OS 9, and no ADC. But for what kind of gaming I do, that and later MacOS compatible Radeons are probably just wasted graphics power. But...

I take your point about "cosplaying" a machine. While I could go all out with top-end G4 processor upgrades. SATA cards in RAID arrays and bleeding edge graphics, it's not exactly goal -- at least for this machine. I like the challenge of balancing a budget upgrade with eeking a bit of extra power, and giving a sort of era correct approximation as to what a machine would operate like back then.

Phipli said:

If the pen is like what I've seen, don't do this, its harder to remove than solder...

If it is removal, I'd be interested to know what you have in mind?

Click to expand...

Oh! I've haven't used one before (or maybe so -- the overclocking Celerons might have used this). I'll keep that in mind before using it.

As far as overclock speed? 550mhz seems to be universally stable overclock. I was thinking about shooting for 600mhz. The jumper pads allow for up 800mhz. I absolutely doubt I would get that high, let alone having it be stable. I think 600mhz is iffy, and anything beyond that is probably be a not go.

The simplest is the 550mhz. The pad for R9 on the processor clocks it at 500mhz. Adding an additional one to R11 gets 550mhz. Everything beyond that requires removing/and or adding multiple resistors. Simplicity and stability say 550mhz. But if the pen turns out to be removable (and even if not intended to be, its such a small area to clean that isopropyl and a stiff toothbrush or flux seems like it would be able to get it off. :morefingercrossing.emoji:

macinbot said:

Oh! I've haven't used one before (or maybe so -- the overclocking Celerons might have used this). I'll keep that in mind before using it.

As far as overclock speed? 550mhz seems to be universally stable overclock. I was thinking about shooting for 600mhz. The jumper pads allow for up 800mhz. I absolutely doubt I would get that high, let alone having it be stable. I think 600mhz is iffy, and anything beyond that is probably be a not go.

The simplest is the 550mhz. The pad for R9 on the processor clocks it at 500mhz. Adding an additional one to R11 gets 550mhz. Everything beyond that requires removing/and or adding multiple resistors. Simplicity and stability say 550mhz. But if the pen turns out to be removable (and even if not intended to be, its such a small area to clean that isopropyl and a stiff toothbrush or flux seems like it would be able to get it off. :morefingercrossing.emoji:

Click to expand...

The pens I've seen are like a hard resin with conductive particles suspended, they're really not wipe on / wipe off.

I find most processors overclock between 15 and 20%. There are exceptions both ways, but I usually try 20%, monitor temps and stability under multiple back to back benchmarks, and back off if I have issues.

I live in a cold house though so have more thermal overhead

Phipli said:

I live in a cold house though so have more thermal overhead

Click to expand...

Ha!

550mhz is a 10% bump and 600mhz is the 20%. And yeah, running a bunch of benchmarks and intensive photoshop tasks was the plan for vetting the overclock.

Per a user over at macos9lives, there is no hardware based SCSI RAID solution for OS 9 and OS 9 cannot boot from software raid (which makes sense).

Looks like that takes the wind out of that sail. Still, that single Atlas 10,000 RPM SCSI drive is pretty fast, and makes an enjoyable racket, so it will stay.

Current progress: Case is going to see some changes. Not sure exactly what those are, but I have a couple solid ideas.

Update:

My Nvidia GeForce 4 MX ADC/VGA card is apparently dead. That would have been a solid graphics choice. Currently back to the ATI Rage 128.

Trying to find another GeForce 4 or a Radeon 9000 with ADC & VGA that won't break the bank.

The SCSI RAID is a dead end. Decided to stick with the single Quantum Atlas 18gb 10,000 RPM SCSI drive.

Connected my Sun Microsystems StoreEdge 12x bay external SCSI enclosure and tried all sorts of tinkering to see if I could get an MacOS 9 boot off of it. No dice. But OS X Tiger is more than happy to boot from the external RAID.

The Juli@ audio card is also OS X only. I thought it was also MacOS 9 compatible. But alas, no.

So I've got a free PCI slot now:

1. ATTO ExpressPCI Ultra SCSI card
2. SIIG USB 2.0 / FireWire 800 card
3. [EMPTY]

Along with both internal and external 68-pin connectors, the ATTO SCSI card does have a 50-pin internal SCSI header. Thinking I may fill the empty PCI slot's case access with a DB 50-pin connector. I'll have to poke around eBay to see if something like that is out there.

On a more exciting note:

I've swapped plastics between the standard Graphite G4 tower and the Blue & White G3 to create both a "Graphite & White" and a "Blue & Silver" PowerMac G4 case. I want to make a thread in the Lounge with a poll to see which members like better. But having a bit of trouble finding a FREE online poll that doesn't limit participant usage and/or doesn't expire in a short time period.

Wanted to spice up my G4 build. Did some plastics swap between a Blue & White G3 and the G4 Graphite case. Head over to this thread in the Lounge and tell me which you like best.

PowerMac G4 "Blue & Silver" vs. "Graphite & White"