Rethinking my bridge/server setup

Ok, so, I have been rethinking my current setup I have. as of right now, my classic Mac files are stored on my 2014 iMac and on my RAID drive. The only issue is that to get it to my other Macs, it requires using my G4 Quicksilver as a bridge. The G4 runs 10.4, so Mac OS 8, 9, and even 7.1 with the upgraded AppleShare IP extension on my IIfx can see and communicate with it. What I was thinking of doing was the following: getting an old Mini that can run 10.4, hooking my 500 GB FW HD to it, storing all my classic Mac files on there. My current iMac can talk to 10.4 (so I can still easily save AppleSauce-generated floppy images), and my 2014 Mini will also be able to see and connect, so I can back up the archive to the RAID, which then eventually gets backed up to an 18 TB drive that I keep off site (my work locker, if you must know).

My question is this: I know that it took some doing to get 10.4 to speak regular old AppleTalk that, say, the IIfx can connect to. Is 10.6 too far removed to do that? I only ask because OWC has some dirt-cheap 2009 Minis (like, $50), and I was wondering if that would be a possible option vs the $300 for 2005 Minis on eBay. If 10.4 is really the max you can possibly use, that means I need to do a more through search for one of those 2005s...

I don't remember entirely when "classic AppleTalk" was deprecated/removed from the Mac OS, but I know that 8.5 was able to communicate all the way up to a 10.11 server I had once I twiddled the right settings.

The first-gen Intels should run 10.4 or 10.5, and I believe that 10.5 works as well. I have 10.5 and 8.1 available to do network tests on if it would help any. Don't have any 7 systems on the 'net yet, unfortunately. (That dang project list keeps growing!)

Why store your classic mac files on a machine running Mac OS X? Speed?
Why not stick a SATA card in your Quicksilver, create a mirror'd RAID array on 2x 512GB drives and use that as your classic mac server.
That should set you back $100-$200 and not more.
Then put AppleTalk Server IP v6 on the Quicksilver and you have for yourself a nice file server.
As I've mentioned before, I use a Mac Mini G4 running Mac OS 9.2.2 for this purpose.

ArmorAlley said:

Why store your classic mac files on a machine running Mac OS X? Speed?
Why not stick a SATA card in your Quicksilver, create a mirror'd RAID array on 2x 512GB drives and use that as your classic mac server.
That should set you back $100-$200 and not more.
Then put AppleTalk Server IP v6 on the Quicksilver and you have for yourself a nice file server.
As I've mentioned before, I use a Mac Mini G4 running Mac OS 9.2.2 for this purpose.

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But...can macOS 13 connect to ATSIP 6? That's the real issue: forward compatibility. I need to have modern access as well. Also, I don't want to have the Quicksilver on unless it has to for electricity reasons: the Mini would use far less electricity.

LaPorta said:

But...can macOS 13 connect to ATSIP 6? That's the real issue: forward compatibility.

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No idea. I know very little about modern Mac OS versions.
Are you asking too much, I wonder, when you want to connect a Mac from 1990 with a Mac from 2020?
Would it not be enough to have two networks with the RAID as the common item, which allow for file transfer between the networks of old machines and new machines?
I had an old Synology box for this purpose until, I think, it upgraded itself to obsolescence. Now I use sneakernet when I want to transfer files from the network of old macs to my current computer.

LaPorta said:

unless it has to for electricity reasons: the Mini would use far less electricity.

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Which is one of the reasons I use a mac Mini G4 as my file server for classic Mac software. I don't leave it on all of the time though. An mSATA drive fits nicely into a Mac Mini G4 btw.

What you say is true (1990 to 2020), but that’s why I discuss the Mini option: one machine that can talk to my 2020 iMac (which the Quicksilver via 10.4 can do) as well as my IIfx with 7.1.1 and upgraded AppleShare. The quicksilver already does what I want with 10.4: my real question is will 10.5 or 10.6 do the same, or will the IIfx be unable to connect? That would mean I need a mini with 10.4, max.

I always use http://www.applefool.com/se30/ as reference because I usually forget the version compatibility. There is a chart about half way down that explains which versions connect to which. I have found that Mac OS X 10.2.8 Server to be a very useful bridge as Mac OS 6 on up can connect to it as well as any OS above 10.2.8

Good grief…that guy should have written a book! It will take me some time to delve into that.

interesting site @mikes-macs

he even mentioned toward the same thing I had realized for certain little things a while ago, 10.4 started 'dropping' things and by the time 10.6 was out you could for most part pretty much say goodbye to doing any kind of old tasks anymore

anyhow laporta if you do end up with the mini-as-bridgeserver box that might actually sound nice, let us know what you do??

10.4 is the first version to exclude AppleShare-over-AppleTalk. To the best of my knowledge, it's not possible to add it back. 10.4 itself retains AppleTalk for printers and printing, but not files.

10.2 or 10.3 will have AppleShare over AppleTalk for LT-only Macs that should, as far as I know, also work for systems where you can't run OT/AS updates and likely for system 6. ASIP6 (or the built in os9 filesharing)

A Mac mini G4 will run 10.3 but an Intel Mac mini won't, so kind of depending on what you want you're getting into the realm of either:
1. you can run more then one bridge machine targeting different parts of your collection
2. you can run netatalk2 on linux as a server to target your whole collection at once (this is functionally the better solution for actually big file collections as you can use more modern hardware, filesystems, etc etc.)

ASIP6: I don't really recommend ASIP6 unless you're in it specifically because you want to run a server. My incomplete notes are here, I know I need to fill those out a bit at some point: https://doku.stenoweb.net/doku.php?id=macdex:asip-6-guide

ASIP6 can do ASIP and AppleShare over AppleTalk, but it's a little lacking on the modern side of things. Its plain FTP server is, to be straight-up, incredibly unreliable, and anything newer than 10.6 will refuse to talk to it.

OS9's built in file sharing should have the same compatibility ASIP itself does and I'd say to use it unless you're genuinely in a multi-user or shared type of environment, like vtools, or you're deploying these things in a real environment for some reason.

Modern MacOS will connect to AppleShare over IP on 10.4 (at least up through macos11, haven't installed 12/13 on anything yet)

I don't know the status of modern macos connecting to, say, 10.3 or 10.2, so it's tough to say how those will fare.

If you have a PowerMac G4 around to do server work, I will say that, IME OS X and OS X Server are significantly more reliable than ASIP6 and Mac OS 9, especially over long periods of time. If you run ASIP6, consider a reboot to be basically a weekly maintenance task, at absolute minimum.

One more thought: RAID is not a backup. Fault tolerance is not a backup. You still should probably have a backup. My plan for the new vtools was to get a ~16-20TB hard disk and do weekly clones of the boot and data disks onto it. OS X should be able to basically do that on its own (well, or with backup software) - OS 9 doesn't like doing very big file copies though. Haven't tried retrospect on there, should probably set up a vtools lab box to poke at.

Cory, thank you for the insights, very helpful as usual. I can tell you, however, that by some enabling via tools, 10.4 does in fact allow for file sharing via regular AppleTalk. I was able to get my IIfx with 7.1.1 and the AppleShare upgrade you told me about to work just fine with my QuickSilver running 10.4. I, too, thought that 10.3 would be the end, but someone told me otherwise (I’d have to look back to reference the conversation here), and I tried it and it worked.

I did actually just pick up a rather pristine-looking, original box Mini from 2005 off eBay for under $100 shipped. Per MacTracker it should run as low as 10.3, but I’m going to try and use 10.4.11 like my QuickSilver has with the AppleTalk enabled. There’s a tool to do it, I saved the program (can’t remember off my head right now). I’ll post here when it arrives and I have my 500 GB d2 HD connected to it.

I’ll find the info and program I used when I get back home this evening.

Ahh, here is the program I was thinking of: SharePoints. This allows simple enabling of AppleTalk on 10.3 and 10.4. Then I used AFP over IP on the IIfx.

I have a VMware box (ESXI is free for home use) that hosts a few VMs including a Debian install with Netatalk 2.2.6.

I only mention VMware as it means I don’t need to dedicate a pi or other computer to this server which saves space.

My Netatalk server has an AppleShare that shares a volume on my NAS that is available by Samba.

So all of my modern machines can connect by Samba and my vintage macs and IIgs pull up the same files by AppleShare and everything works great.

My netatalk server also has printers set up that translate from postscript to whatever the printer speaks via cups so I can print to my brother printers (Color and black and white lasers) from my Macs or my IIgs.

LaPorta said:

Ahh, here is the program I was thinking of: SharePoints. This allows simple enabling of AppleTalk on 10.3 and 10.4. Then I used AFP over IP on the IIfx.

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Yes, SharePoints is helpful for client Mac OS X yet Mac OS X Server makes shares and permissions more easily. Before SharePoints was developed admins had to use the Utility "Net Info Manager" found in the Mac OS X "Utilities" folder to add and configure shares. I can vividly remember the discussions about Net Info Manager and what a PITA it can be.

If you look down at the bottom of http://www.applefool.com/se30/ in the "Conclusion" section you'll see that the site was the culmination of information provided over the years by various 68kmla.org members, long ago.

mikes-macs said:

I always use http://www.applefool.com/se30/ as reference

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Thanks for this link! It's amazing!

Cory5412 said:

I don't know the status of modern macos connecting to, say, 10.3 or 10.2, so it's tough to say how those will fare.

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Now I'm curious about this. I have a G4 here all ready to become a Jaguar server for the Legacy Network VLAN, but I haven't had time to set it up yet. I'll try to remember to test a connection between it and the Monterey and Ventura M1s I have when I set it up.

Corgi said:

Now I'm curious about this. I have a G4 here all ready to become a Jaguar server for the Legacy Network VLAN, but I haven't had time to set it up yet. I'll try to remember to test a connection between it and the Monterey and Ventura M1s I have when I set it up.

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macOS 13 connects just fine to 10.4; I would assume the same of 10.2 or .3.

So I ordered the 2005 mini, new 1 GB RAM, new 512 GB mSATA SSD, mSATA to 2.5” ATA adapter, DVI to female HDMI adapter, and OWC headless adapter…I’m all in. I figured 512 GB would be enough to host the old software, so this way I won’t even need an external HD.

Does anyone know of a good way to save work on a classic mac that would then somehow seamlessly end up in iCloud? I have macs of all vintages… not sure what the oldest mac that can use iCloud Drive is. Thinking maybe some kind of synchronising software onto my new mac, I used to use one called Super File Synchoniser or something like that. Would be great to be able to access all my work without having to manually transfer stuff across and I’m sure I’d use my old macs a lot more if I could Do this

LaPorta said:

So I ordered the 2005 mini, new 1 GB RAM, new 512 GB mSATA SSD, mSATA to 2.5” ATA adapter, DVI to female HDMI adapter, and OWC headless adapter…I’m all in. I figured 512 GB would be enough to host the old software, so this way I won’t even need an external HD.

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Backup software is also a good idea as is a bus-powered external hard drive, unless you use your NAS-RAID as your backup.

ArmorAlley said:

Backup software is also a good idea as is a bus-powered external hard drive, unless you use your NAS-RAID as your backup.

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My thought is to back up to my current Mini/RAID over the network.