Thinking of buying a Dell 3350 or the like for Ubuntu

[beachycove]

I have not bought a computer other than an Apple-branded unit except once ... in 1988. I kid you not. Back then, the purchase was an Epson PC/XT that I needed to write a thesis on. I really, really wanted a Mac, but qua student, could not afford both it and food to eat; the Epson thus won the battle for my money.

However, I have very recently been toying with Ubuntu 10.10 on a spare Pismo, based on some recommendations re. the model that I found on lowendmac (btw, they are not accurate). The Pismo in question is a stock G3/400 with 512MB RAM and a 20GB drive, which should be enough to run the beast, but it is still far and away too slow for my liking. I had tried MintPPC before, too, but found that it is a little too Spartan — though it is admittedly faster.

I had expected, somehow, to be disappointed by Ubuntu, but quite the reverse. The look and feel of Ubuntu I really like, and with Ubuntu 11.10 out this Autumn with Gnome 3, I think I might come to like it even more. I am not a programmer/ unix/ command line kind of guy, but the Open Software principle is definitely appealing, and the more Apple takes over the world, quite frankly, the less interested I get in contributing to its triumph by purchasing too many more of its products.

I think what really turned the tide was when in Unbuntu 10.10, I tried to find my Apple LaserWriter printers, and bingo, there they were. Basically, it seems that I can as likely retain connectivity to my old gear on a Dell running Open Source as I can on Apple proprietary equipment.

So, what about it? Am I mad to make such a switch, or do I go ahead and dip my toe into the Ubuntu-waters?

And is there a mid-range i3 or i5 laptop that could be recommended for Ubuntu above a 13" Dell?

[ChristTrekker]

I had expected, somehow, to be disappointed by Ubuntu, but quite the reverse. The look and feel of Ubuntu I really like, and with Ubuntu 11.10 out this Autumn with Gnome 3, I think I might come to like it even more. I am not a programmer/ unix/ command line kind of guy, but the Open Software principle is definitely appealing, and the more Apple takes over the world, quite frankly, the less interested I get in contributing to its triumph by purchasing too many more of its products.

I think what really turned the tide was when in Unbuntu 10.10, I tried to find my Apple LaserWriter printers, and bingo, there they were. Basically, it seems that I can as likely retain connectivity to my old gear on a Dell running Open Source as I can on Apple proprietary equipment.

So, what about it? Am I mad to make such a switch, or do I go ahead and dip my toe into the Ubuntu-waters?

Nothing wrong with trying something new, but if you like 10.10, beware that 11.04 introduces a drastically new UI (Unity). Many long-time Ubuntu users have not been pleased by the switch. Personally I tend toward Xubuntu, as I'm generally using older machines and Xfce is smaller/faster than Gnome, so it hasn't affected me.

The Ubuntu model fits very well for the non-geek, that likes to just install and have it work instead of futzing with it constantly. That sounds like you. As long as you don't miss any Mac-only apps you may have, you'll probably find ?ubuntu much to your liking. Do educate yourself on the difference between normal and Long Term Support releases though.

[theos911]

Well, as for the new UI, you can switch between them at login. After selecting your name you can go to the bottom and go to Ubuntu classic. I don't have an issue with Unity, except for its inefficiency. As soon as I hit login my GPU fan maxes and stays there. I have have a nVidia 9800gt, a bit old, but certainly no slouch. I play games on the windows side without its fan going into overdrive, so I see no reason for a UI to crank it that far.

[PackingTape]

What he said. Also, if you have the money, a lot of people say that the quality of thinkpads is a little higher than the average PC laptop. Not as much higher as it was under IBM, but still better. Also many (including myself) like their keyboards. They are more solid feeling. Just pointing it out, in case you decide to go with ubuntu.

[beachycove]

Will take a peek at the ThinkPads. I am in no rush, so what I may do is identify a couple of suitable i3/i5 models and then watch for a good deal. $450-600 should do it, used or new. This is still only an experiment.

I upgraded to Ubuntu 11.4 on the Pismo today, and as I cannot find this documented anywhere on the web, I will briefly report the results here. The upgrade from 10.10 worked perfectly (the custom settings required in v.10 were preserved, etc.). Airport networking still does not work, though the card is certainly recognized, showing up in iwconfig and all. I tend to think the trouble lies with the cheap router, since I cannot successfully connect to it. Apparently this is pretty common.

Beyond that, I find that 11.4 on the 400MHz Pismo, 512MB RAM, a) defaults to the older interface because of the limited graphics capability of the Rage 128, but also that b) it seems subjectively to be about the same speed-wise as 10.10, meaning maybe a little slower but not by much. Not working with the heavier GUI obviously helps. But as I am just playing around, speed does not matter for the moment. I also had the option of re-installting v.10 had the thing ground to a complete halt.

Speed-wise, some things are perfectly fine — LibreOffice seems satisfyingly snappy in use, for instance, if a little slow to start up. But the overall feel of the machine is that it's struggling to keep up. Thus my thoughts about finding a newer machine to play around with the system. Maybe in due course I'd want to move on to OpenSuse or Fedora.

My thinking is that I would like to learn some new skills, and branch out a bit. The old Macs with which I have played for the past twenty years are getting a little tiresome, truth be told. If I could make those new skills save me money in the long term, e.g., by allowing me still to afford a usable computer and a solid set of software tools one of these days if I can manage to take early retirement, then so much the better.

BTW, what do you people think of Gnome 3?

[theos911]

Well, just for reference sake. Since either 9 or 10, the recommended requirements are 1gb of RAM and a 1ghz cpu. So, in essence, yes, the pismo is always trying to keep up.

[ChristTrekker]

Well, as for the new UI, you can switch between them at login.

I seem to recall one of the guys at work saying that it was going to be only Unity as of 11.10—no option for the previous UI. So if you don't like it, tough, or use one of the *buntu variants. But, I don't follow these things that closely, so do your own research.

Personally, I'd like to see more of Étoilé or Equinox. I'd be excited if either of them matures to the point where there's a *buntu variant using it. I use older hardware out of necessity, so lightweight apps and efficiency are always on my mind.

[beachycove]

The ThinkPads do look a much more substantial (and compatible) option. Thanks for the tip.

[ianj]

Personally, I'd like to see more of Étoilé or Equinox. I'd be excited if either of them matures to the point where there's a *buntu variant using it. I use older hardware out of necessity, so lightweight apps and efficiency are always on my mind.

It's not a full-blown desktop environment like Étoilé, but I've been doing a bit of experimentation with Window Maker lately. I stumbled upon it years ago and liked it, but I was mostly using Macs back then and didn't pay it much attention. Now that I'm on "proper" UNIX most of the time, I'm taking a closer look and liking what I see. I was never a fan of the NEXTSTEP Workspace Manager, but I like the actual window management... something of a hybrid between Mac OS and more typical UNIX window managers, which Window Maker reproduces faithfully. Even though I'm mostly dealing with a later-model multicore machine, I'm tempted to just blow away GNOME and use Window Maker because it's so well-designed.

Ubuntu on that Pismo would probably fly if the same was done to it.

[Gorgonops]

Airport networking still does not work, though the card is certainly recognized, showing up in iwconfig and all. I tend to think the trouble lies with the cheap router, since I cannot successfully connect to it. Apparently this is pretty common.

If you're using an original "Airport" card, IE, something using the Lucent WaveLan driver, and your AP is configured to use WPA it probably won't work with the standard Ubuntu "network-manager" software. (I ran into this problem myself recently.) The driver is crotchety and nonstandard, and there's some obscure difference about it that makes its WPA support not work quite right with Network Manager. (If you dig around you'd probably be able to find a support thread about it.) You could try uninstalling network-manager and installing wicd instead:

http://wicd.sourceforge.net/

(It's in the ubuntu repositories.) It worked for me out of the box. (The machine I was working with wasn't a Mac, but the hardware was the same.)

Also of course bear in mind that WPA2 with AES won't work with that hardware at all. If your router is configured that way try backing it down to WPA1/TKIP.

[beachycove]

Still playing around with the spare Pismo, and today I installed Debian Lenny. Usable but about as slow as recent Ubuntu releases.

So I am going to go back to MintPPC and see if I can tweak it. I dug through the forums on the mintppc.org site and discovered buried in a list exchange that a step was missing in the installation instructions (!), which possibly explains explains the barrenness of the environment last time I tried. And at that point I didn't even know what sudo meant, so this time around I may do a bit better.

If I can get the Pismo up and running the most recent Debian relatively well ( - or better, really well, which is what mintppc promises) on the Pismo, maybe I can use it as a learning environment and save my pennies.

I have, however, been dreaming idly of one of these.... It looks very like a PowerBook 100, but updated for today, and apparently it runs Ubuntu 11.04 rather well (with a little TLC), which means that, come the Fall, it will run v.11.10 even better.

[beachycove]

It took a couple of tries (well, three if you count the first), but I now have mintppc (Debian squeeze) running on the Pismo with its undemanding but perfectly acceptable GUI, and I have to tell you that the difference between running this and Ubuntu on a Pismo in terms of speed is very, very noticeable.

I did not have it working right before, despite my best efforts (is it common for Linux installations to fail??), but the whole thing down to Airport networking (which in this case is indeed wicd based) is now functional.

This means that I can indeed play with Linux without worrying about a new machine for the moment. If I like it, then I will probably buy something decent sometime in the next six months or so and move on to one of the more common distributions on a machine capable of running it well. And if I find it too limiting, then there is no money wasted.

Posting from the Pismo using a browser called "Epiphany" now.

[Cory5412]

Just a quick note from the hardware side -- I tend to recommend Latitudes and ThinkPads whenever somebody asks. Just make sure you get one with either discrete or integrated graphics (probably integrated if you're going to use linux and your apps are going to be closer to productivity and Internet.)

Any of the T series or Latitude E6* series are the somewhat premium products, and ecept that I pretty much need to move to something physically smaller, are what I'd be buying at my next upgrade point. I have a T400 from 2009 right now, and it's going strong. The biggest problem is that its accidental damage warranty is almost up, and I'm somewhat spill prone. (Also, its glorious 14 hours of battery life at new have diminished to a lowly four or so, and the new batteries are $250 with my particular discount -- on a machine that, if I fell and crushed on the pavement tomorrow, would need immediate replacement anyway. But that's my own internal thought process.)

One other machine I briefly considered as a dedicated linux computer was the Vostro V130, which had been on sale at the time with Ubuntu for something ridiculous like $299 or $350. It was far from the most powerful computer (in fact, the variant that was so cheap was a single core, ultra low voltage Celeron of the Penryn generation) but it looks like it'd get most linux tasks done well enough for the next several years. The V131 now stands in that place and has a bigger battery option along with a dual-core chip.

The biggest potential downside of the V130/131 is the lack of an optical drive and only one memory socket. I tend not to notice because even on my bigger laptop, I substitute the optical drive for additional battery.

Good luck on the adventure of whatever OS you put on whatever machine you choose!

[Gorgonops]

Just make sure you get one with either discrete or integrated graphics (probably integrated if you're going to use linux and your apps are going to be closer to productivity and Internet.)

I wasn't aware anyone was actually making teletype-only or headless laptops. Learn something new every day.

[Cory5412]

Cute. Unnecessary application of clearly faulty logic, but cute.

What I mean is that you want ot ensure that you buy a laptop that includes (exclusively) discrete graphics OR integrated graphics, not a dual-graphics or switching-graphics solution.

Several laptops shipping in late 2008 and forward featured switchable graphics, and it's something that either makes the machine straight-up incompatible with almost everything except the OS it shipped with brand new (My laptop's Windows Vista drivers work with Windows 7, but there hasn't been any indication that Lenovo will update the driver for Windows forcing you either to run Windows or tell the BIOS to force the use of one chip or the other, resulting in your paying for hardware you cannot and will not ever use.

It's not a problem for me, because I approve significantly of Windows 7, but it may prevent me from wanting to upgrade this machine to Windows 8, and it has prevented me from wanting ot use it for any linux/bsd variation, or Solaris.

Just as a cautionary tale.

[ianj]

Gorgonops: Are you trying to be clever?

Anyway, I'm now thinking about buying a PC laptop, which I haven't done before. Apple's offerings are very nice, but for $300 less than their 1.6 GHz entry level I can get a 2.4GHz i5, and I'm comfortable with not-OS X. The only catch is that driver considerations for laptops are more of a headache than desktops, but I think I have it figured out.

I wanted to do Solaris like on my desktops, but the KMS support needed to use Intel's Sandy Bridge graphics isn't complete. Fortunately, I also like Debian, so I plan to go with that. I found a Japanese manufacturer that lets your order anything from their lineup without Windows preinstalled, is known to build their machines without oddball components, and just came out with a new 11.6" laptop that is cheap and has great specs. Should be fun.

[Gorgonops]

Wow, touchy touchy.

The only point I was making with my snide comment was if exotic new graphics-switching technologies are what you're referring to you might want to be clear about it. Otherwise the statement looks like nonsense. As stated it was not at all transparent what the heck was being discussed.

[bse5150]

I too recommend Thinkpads. I have an old (2006) T60 and it is a workhorse with a great keyboard.

[beachycove]

Returning to an old thread that I recently looked up for reference, I finally took the Ubuntu plunge in a small but sigificant way, in the form of a ThinkPad X120e. Ubuntu went on it today, and after a few hours I can report my impressions.

First, the reasons for this: I am considering ditching a far-too powerful, self-satisfied Apple, Inc., in my future computer purchases, and needed something to do some serious tinkering with to see if I can find a viable alternative for my personal circumstances. What has really pi##ed me off over the past couple of years of Apple products is the abandonment of older standards in which I have invested, which has been done far too quickly (no Snow Leopard for a G5 tower???), in an obvious strategy to force people to upgrade. I am not planning to go significantly further in that particular Apple-imposed, get-yourself-screwed direction.

The ThinkPad in question is the smallest of the lot. The X120e has an AMD Fusion e350 dual core processor, and, while netbook-sized, packs a powerful enough punch for my purposes. I like small laptops anyway, and this one is very happily running Ubuntu as I write on it. Everything seems to work, plenty fast, well built, etc. Bring on Ubuntu 12!

The highly controversial Gnome 3 (which is a sort of glorified Unity as I see it) proves to be a very usable desktop environment. It is certainly a pleasure to use by comparison with that convoluted OS that the machine came running (Windows 7 Professional).

So thanks to those who put me on the ThinkPad trail. I really like this set-up, even if the inner workings of Debian are still something of a mystery. Still, there's only one way to learn. So far, so very good!

[Cory5412]

As mobile computers go, ThinkPads have basically been the best for a very long time. I've got a mid-range T30 from 2002 that I've recently bought a new disk for and am planning on using for some Windows 8 Consumer Preview action.

I like Ubuntu well enough, but I've seen them fall out of favor as the preferred linux distro of the moment. Most people will tell you to try something rpm-based these days, such as CentOS, and I've seen a lot of people advocating Arch linux.

I briefly thought about grabbing an X120e, they are definitely cute, but they cost twice what the Acer machine of the same spec does, and I've already got a load of x86 laptops, so I decided not to. Depending on if/when I want to move toward even smaller laptops, I'll definitely be looking at the X130, and everyone I know who has or has seen the X220 loves the goodness out of it, for situations where more mainstream computing power is required.

Apple has almost always been wired to abandon "old standards" more quickly than any other vendor, in part because they've almost always been more consumer-focused than professional focused (and they've always been more focused on end user systems rather than, say, servers or supercomputers). Macs (1) having caught on in professional environments was, as far as I can tell, kind of an accident based on the LaserWriter and Aldus/Adobe.

As a result of Apple's end-user focus, it's not hard to see why they let old products die -- if it's not going to provide a good user experience, why have it? It's not like a piece of an unknowable corporate information system. It's a desktop.

(1) -- Apple knew more about what they were doing when iOS showed up and has done a good job at those devices suitable for use in information-sensitive, managed environments.