HD20 Schematics required

Macintosh, 512k, SE, etc.

Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Concorde1993 » 30 Nov 2010, 03:12

Mac128 wrote:Actually it is sort of interesting that once a topic becomes hot on this forum, suddenly the item in question begins turning up in spades.

I was not referring to the thread. Most threads on the Compact Mac forum are interesting, hence why I read/post most often here.

Mac128 wrote:As for the floppy disk, hardly rare. I see at least a dozen or so per year circulating on eBay with and without the drives.

Interesting. One would figure with age/degradation of the floppies they would become more rare as most are rendered useless.

Mac128 wrote:There's rare stuff on eBay, but it is few and far between. Nothing discussed here is rare, and I hate this forum helping to perpetrate this myth in any way.

Wasn't trying to go in that direction. I realize how irritating it can be when someone posts something as "rare" online when it fact it is not. Regardless of this "inconsistency," collectors still go bananas on eBay.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby jsarchibald » 30 Nov 2010, 03:18

I honestly do not understand why people get so worked up on this forum. I'm a member of several similar sites and they are able to keep everything polite, but here you get a smack across the chops for even mentioning something. Come on, let's try to help, not upset. We all have a common goal, and that is an interest in older computers, especially those made by Apple.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby jongleur » 30 Nov 2010, 03:38

I agree, but all in all, the "Compact Mac" forum here is definitely my favourite! This thread in particular has drawn out more information than I could have imagined, unfortunately not what I was after when I started this thread, but very education none the less.

If anything comes of it, great! If not, it has been enjoyable, and thanks!

I'm interested in the Compact Macs because of the impact they had on me when they appeared on the scene bay in '84, even though I stayed with the Apple2 camp for the programming that I was doing after university. I have little to no interest in the desktop Macs that came after the SE, until the arrival of the iMac of '98. I regret that I don't have any skills to offer in the endeavor to get the HD20 nutted out, but I'll support the process (project?) in whatever other ways that I can.

So everybody, let's keep the discussion strong and fruitful, and enjoy the ride.

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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 30 Nov 2010, 03:39

Well, I'm not going to be discouraged. I'll do what I can with the knowledge I have and we'll just go from there. There are other engineers among us to help where I fall short.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Concorde1993 » 30 Nov 2010, 03:49

jsarchibald wrote:I honestly do not understand why people get so worked up on this forum. I'm a member of several similar sites and they are able to keep everything polite, but here you get a smack across the chops for even mentioning something. Come on, let's try to help, not upset.

I'm not upset, JS, or worked up. I just replied to a thread. No vulgarity, nothing. Can't I speak anymore? :-/

jsarchibald wrote:We all have a common goal, and that is an interest in older computers, especially those made by Apple.

Although the Amigas during the early-Mac era were far more superior (OK, now bash me for turning to the Dark Side).
Vintage Macs:88 SE SuperDrive, 87 Plus (was a 512ke), 512K, Plus, IW II (2x), 96 5215CD, LW 300, SW 1500, SW 2200 (2x), MS 17, SC 20 HD, 800k ED & eMate
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby jsarchibald » 30 Nov 2010, 03:50

Definitely the best forum for my interests. I love when people just want to help and pass on their knowledge, and hate it when a handful of people react negatively to everything and expect us to all be experts. We are here to learn from those who know, everyone has to start from somewhere.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby jsarchibald » 30 Nov 2010, 03:52

Nothing personal Concorde, I just keep seeing negativity and the like, which detracts a little from what is a great website. Now just felt like the time to bring it up, so don't read into it too much.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Concorde1993 » 30 Nov 2010, 04:00

jsarchibald wrote:I just keep seeing negativity and the like, which detracts a little from what is a great website.

It must be the effect of the silicon fumes rising from our Macs. :beige:
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby jsarchibald » 30 Nov 2010, 04:08

Or maybe the site is full of crotchety old Apple engineers who are sick of telling the youngins' how to fix a computer.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby jongleur » 30 Nov 2010, 04:14

Don't forget us wannabe old Apple engineers, we demand the right to be crotchety as well :-/
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Concorde1993 » 30 Nov 2010, 04:21

jsarchibald wrote:Or maybe the site is full of crotchety old Apple engineers who are sick of telling the youngins' how to fix a computer.

Well, whatever the case, I do enjoy the occasional "thread war." They can become quite exhilarating, and it's always good to knock horns every once in awhile... (we are men, after all. I doubt there are any girls on this forum) :D

...until we are banned from the site. 8-)
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby JDW » 30 Nov 2010, 04:21

I actually like coming here because it's NOT excessively polite or overbearingly moderated. Sometimes posters are naughty here, and sometimes they're nice. Some consider me naughty for speaking so bold about EBAY sellers and the user of the wicked term "rare," but I couldn't care less. I prefer it that people speak their minds and allow me to do the same. It's not like we're talking about selling illegal drugs or making bombs on this site, nor are we using profanity or trying to destroy the reputation of others. We're just talking, and sometimes that gets passionate. So what? If we Mac users are anything, especially we old-timer Apple collectors, we are a diverse crowd. Let's thrive in that diversity. Don't worry so much about the little things. It's sometimes good to overlook posts or even entire threads sometimes. Live and let live, I say.

Now with that said, I think this thread offers a lot of good technical info, and a few stray comments here and there do not detract from that.

And if someone can come up with a flash drive replacement for my HD20's spinning platter drive mechanism, I have my Paypal account ready and waiting. Just make sure it's compatible with System .85 / Finder 1.0. ;-)
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby trag » 30 Nov 2010, 20:11

JDW wrote:And if someone can come up with a flash drive replacement for my HD20's spinning platter drive mechanism, I have my Paypal account ready and waiting. Just make sure it's compatible with System .85 / Finder 1.0. ;-)


Yes, and we'll have that USB interface for your Mac 128K ready a few days later. ;-)

Although, honestly, it should be very straightforward to hook some of the USB chipsets to a 68000. The hard part would be writing the software drivers for the thing.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Gorgonops » 30 Nov 2010, 20:23

trag wrote:Although, honestly, it should be very straightforward to hook some of the USB chipsets to a 68000. The hard part would be writing the software drivers for the thing.


It's impossible to write device drivers for Macs. Ask anybody.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 30 Nov 2010, 20:51

I must say that I am more interested in working on the IWM side than the Rodime side. That could easily change, but the IWM bus has the potential to allow more versatility and works for people who don't have an HD-20 to begin with.

I must say that I don't fully-understand the UART theory. From what I understand of what you're saying, you think that the IWM in the Mac may encode data into IWM signals, and the IWM in the HD-20 basically decodes them back to the original signals. Is this correct?

I can see how you would cross the serial transmit and receive lines, but the control signals must either be bi-directional or not used, because they are both the same IWM chip (presumably). i.e. Normally, with a floppy drive, the Mac's IWM sends out control signals, sends out serial data, and receives serial data. I'm not aware of the Mac's IWM ever receiving control signals from a drive, maybe I'm wrong. I have more reading to do on these things. Bi-directional control signals would complicate matters because it's difficult, but not impossible, to rig something up that can analyze which direction data is going on a bidirectional bus if we don't have an obvious data direction line.

To analyze an unknown bidirectional bus, for each line you need two schottky diodes, opposite directions wired in parallel, inserted in series with the line. The diodes cause a slight voltage drop on the receiving end when the data = 1, which can be detected with a comparator in parallel with the diodes. However, when the data = 0, the voltage is higher on the receiving end. So you XOR the comparator output with the data to conclude if data is sent or received. That's the only way I can fathom determining a completely unknown data direction, and it takes quite a few parts per line.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 30 Nov 2010, 20:57

Gorgonops wrote:
trag wrote:Although, honestly, it should be very straightforward to hook some of the USB chipsets to a 68000. The hard part would be writing the software drivers for the thing.


It's impossible to write device drivers for Macs. Ask anybody.

I can agree with that, especially for System 7 and older. Another major problem would be multitasking. You don't want the whole Mac to lock up every time it has to wait for some USB thing to happen. You may have better luck with a Unix OS, though.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Gorgonops » 30 Nov 2010, 22:18

Dennis Nedry wrote:I must say that I don't fully-understand the UART theory. From what I understand of what you're saying, you think that the IWM in the Mac may encode data into IWM signals, and the IWM in the HD-20 basically decodes them back to the original signals. Is this correct?

I can see how you would cross the serial transmit and receive lines, but the control signals must either be bi-directional or not used, because they are both the same IWM chip (presumably). i.e. Normally, with a floppy drive, the Mac's IWM sends out control signals, sends out serial data, and receives serial data. I'm not aware of the Mac's IWM ever receiving control signals from a drive, maybe I'm wrong...


So... obviously I can't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet a nice shiny nickel on the read/write lines being crossed so the two IWMs act like a pair of UARTs, yes. If you look at that page about programming the IWM (on the Apple IIGS) the IWM essentially acts just like a UART (or at least a parallel-in-serial-out shift register... it's a pretty dumb UART) so there really shouldn't be a barrier to wiring two together, and if you did that a data byte fed into one side *should* be clocked out the other...

Before continuing it's worth noting that the IWM is *the* prime example of Apple's use of clever software to compensate for a lack of discrete hardware, thus resulting in a fairly incomprehensible design despite being electrically "simple". Google for the PDF "Beneath Apple Dos" and read it. You'll see in graphic, horrid detail how the IWM (which is essentially a slightly-enhanced single-chip implementation of the Apple ][ disk controller) requires *software* to imbed the synchronization bits into the data stream bytes. (This document is mentioned in that IIgs IWM programming page.) When you're writing a disk buffer you don't just throw the data at the IWM and it writes it, automatically padding it with sync bits like a "real" disk controller does. No, you get to rewrite the data yourself, aka, "nibble-ize-ing" it, and throw those modified bytes at the controller. Also note there's no interrupts indicating when it has a valid byte/needs the next one. You loop and poll until you're done, period.

(One question that this raises is if communication to the HD-20 likewise has to be nibble-ized, or if they just throw raw bytes at each other. I suppose it has to get clocking information somehow so there's probably *some* massaging of data...)

Anyway, yes, you have a valid point about handshaking/flow control. Because of the "load-select-read" way the IWM communicates with the "smart" 400/800k drive registers there doesn't seem to be a simple way you could just raise and lower a line and have it detectable on the far end. (If it were a pair of PC-style floppy controllers perhaps you could use a status line... do something skanky like tie "motor on" to "write protect" in both directions? Here we don't have that option.) My guess is what Apple did is tie the control register lines from the Mac to an input/output port on the Z8. That would let the Mac twiddle the control lines in whatever way is necessary to get the HD-20's attention, and then the Mac would send a control byte out through the IWM's UART once the Z8 has indicated it's ready. (As indicated through a read of a "control register" in the drive similar to the floppy drive mediated by the Z8. Note that the control lines on the HD-20's IWM aren't connected to anything in this scenario.) When the HD-20 sends something back through its own IWM/UART there won't be any flow control, but... there's no flow control when a spinning disk is shoving bytes at the host computer anyway. You'd work around this by again using a twiddle of the control lines to ensure that the HD-20 doesn't send any data until the Mac indicates it's ready for it. (At which point it would start running an appropriate tightly-coded polling loop.)

Again, this is all 100% speculation. I'm just trying to think like a demented 1985 Apple engineer here.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 30 Nov 2010, 22:46

Well, I am happy to report that my HD20 came in the mail today, and much to my great surprise, it works! The system file was corrupted, so I had to load a new system onto it. (Maybe it was too new and required a Mac Plus instead of the 512k I'm using? I don't know.) Right now I'm running the 15 minute test so we'll see how that goes, but at least I should have enough functionality to get some good information from it.

[edit]
It passed the test!

Schematics and cable connections come next.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 30 Nov 2010, 23:29

I have now confirmed, as we all expected, that the 400k drive cable is identical from end to end to the HD-20 cable.
Code: Select all
19-Pin D-Sub Connector, looking at the pins of the male connector:
  ______________________________________
  \    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10   /
    \   11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19   /
      \____________________________/

20-Pin header connector, looking at the holes of the female connector:

                 _____               
  _______________|   |_______________
  |  1  2  3  4  nc 6  7  8  nc nc  |
  |  11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10  |
  |_________________________________|



The 20-Pin header has been labeled from the well-known pin numbers of the D-Sub connector. Pin 10 appears to be in the wrong place, but that is the way it is.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby jongleur » 30 Nov 2010, 23:53

Postby Dennis Nedry » 01 Dec 2010, 09:29
I have now confirmed, as we all expected, that the 400k drive cable is identical from end to end to the HD-20 cable.


Thanks for the confirmation on the cable. I'll hook mine up as soon as I can, replacing the callously butchered one on my HD20.

Also congratulations on your HD20 being operational, a great find for such a "rare" ;) device, especially for the price you got it for. Hopefully mine will be similarly inspired to become operational.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 01 Dec 2010, 00:22

Here is a ROM dump of the 2764 ROM chip inside of the HD20:

http://www.d.umn.edu/~bold0070/projects/hd20/hd20.bin

I don't know of any way to verify how good the dump is. All attempts to locate a hard drive icon failed. The information in that document may be wrong, though. Maybe the icon actually comes from the HD20 code in the Mac's ROM or HD 20 extension.

There does appear to be a LITTLE bit of ASCII in there:
Code: Select all
iRene-1 RM MH
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 01 Dec 2010, 01:04

It would appear that all pins are continuous from the main cord to the daisy chain port except for /Enbl2. This includes all serial and control lines. Daisy-chaining should be easy on the hardware side of things.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 01 Dec 2010, 02:46

Pins 21-28 of the Z8 correspond with the data bus D0-D7, connected to IWM, RAM, and ROM. Address lines are interconnected between IWM, RAM, and ROM as well, but they are not connected directly to the Z8 as far as I can tell. They are connected to the big square chip though! (NOT GOOD) My continuity tester is not the very best. I need to find my one that beeps.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 01 Dec 2010, 03:11

Given that addressing goes through the mystery chip, the data may be in a strange order in the ROM dump I provided. It could be that the mystery chip just buffers the address lines, though. 3 TTL inputs off of one Z8 output doesn't seem too bad though, so I'm a little confused why they did that. Maybe just to make it hard to reverse engineer!!

I guess when you think about it, there are lots of address lines. 4 (IWM) + 13 (ROM) + 11 (RAM) = 28 address inputs. Hmmm... Data has to be I/O, maybe that's why they didn't buffer that.

Since inverting buffers are faster and easier to make than noninverting buffers, we could have reverse addressing, i.e., the ROM dump could have to be flipped backwards to be normal Z8 code. Seems unlikely, but something to consider if we have trouble disassembling.
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Re: HD20 Schematics required

Postby Dennis Nedry » 01 Dec 2010, 03:32

Dennis Nedry wrote:There does appear to be a LITTLE bit of ASCII in there:
Code: Select all
iRene-1 RM MH

I think this may be some credits. If you go into the HD20 Test and open the about window, it credits Rodger Mohme with the HD20 Test program. RM could be his initials. This drive is from a time when people ALWAYS hid their names and initials in things. Interesting trivia if it's true, but it also makes me feel a little better about the validity of the ROM dump.

[edit]
Apparently the HD 20 device driver's name is 'RENE':

http://www.vintagemacworld.com/hd20/hd20tool.txt
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