The Current 128K Phenomenon

[Mac128]

Although often discussed, I have been tracking 128K units sold on eBay for over 2 years now and lately I am noticing a disturbing rise in prices and am at a loss to explain it.

First, aren't we in a global economic recession? Second, it's not like the 128K is particularly rare, as the links I will post below will attest (over 10 units in only two months. And I assure you this is normal for 128Ks, there is NOTHING rare about them.

Now to quash some aspects of this discussion before they get started ... PLEASE DON'T discuss specific sellers or the prices they charge (i.e starting price or BIN). That's NOT what this is about. I want to have a serious discussion about the motivations behind the inflated prices buyers pay for these Macs on eBay from all sellers, not one in particular. If you take it to that negative seller-bashing place, the discussion will be shut down, and nothing will get discussed. So if that's what you want to do, move on please.

While we are used to complete Mac systems that ship in original boxes, in original condition, with original accessories, that sell in the $1,000+ range, I'm seeing an alarming rise in selling prices of dead 128Ks and upgraded to 512Ks, without much else of value in the auctions.

What's behind this?

My personal theory is that the prices are being driven up by resellers who are buying up upgraded and dead 128Ks in order to fix and/or restore them. Imagine, you buy a 512K upgraded 128K for $365, replace the logicboard with a 128K one (two on eBay recently for $79 ea.), and then turn around and sell it for almost double. Whether a re-seller wins the auction or not, it forces the average collector to step up to the league of the professional seller who intends to reap the highest profits possible, and also reducing the number of fixer-uppers available for the do-it-yourself experience which is so intrinsic to many of us who are more invested in our Macs than just the bottom line.

$565
$430 This one was not even an original 128K but the second generation model!
$365 This one has been upgraded to 512K!
$850
$158 This one doesn't even work!
$1200
$520
$1294
$1025
$731

[Unknown_K]

Everything on ebay is going up, an 840AV went for $150 a while back and I remember when you could get one for $40.

Could be that so many younger people have time on their hands (no jobs) and have started collecting old computers as a cheap hobby maybe?

[Paralel]

I happen to fall into that category

[Dog Cow]

Because we're in a global economic recession, people want to try and sell these things for as much money as possible to pay off some bills and what-not.

[Unknown_K]

In a recession fewer people are willing to pay more for these items, and I don't think Bill Gates is buying them up to burn them.

[Scott Baret]

Dog Cow hit the nail on the head. It is still possible (though less common) to get these machines for nothing or next to nothing. Those who want to pay off debt or get some spending cash (employed or not) are selling them at high prices. The target market? Teenage collectors who are still running off mom and dad's money.

We have some very knowledgeable teenage members on this forum. However, I'm sure we all know that many of the younger collectors who don't know just how common 128Ks are will ask their parents to get them one of the "rare originals". Even some older folks are the same way (although they usually pay for them out of their own pocket). Anyone who was around to witness these Macs in their heyday will know just how common the 128K was. It was, after all, the only Mac model on the market for the better part of 1984, and continued to sell reasonably well into 1985 due to its lower price point than the original Mac. Some were upgraded to Pluses, but many more remained original or were simply upgraded to 512Ks.

There seemed to be a 128K "shortage" when eBay was young. I think a lot of people were holding on to their 128Ks hoping they would gain value. Now that a lot of people are looking for machines to sell, the 128Ks that had been in closets and on display are finding their way to the online auction sites. High prices used to be reserved for pristine examples with all original materials but are now the norm due to both people wanting more money and some incorrect perceptions of older Macs.

All Macs have indeed gone up in price on eBay. I remember buying a 512K in 2001 on eBay and feeling as though I had paid a small fortune, as it had gone for $25 (at the time it was uncommon to see anything over $100 and most Macs were about $10-15 before shipping). I think with the age of these machines and the lack of availability in school surplus many are inflating the prices. Unfortunately, the number of these computers still around isn't really changing. The Macs that were going to be disposed of most likely already were years ago when schools and companies downsized.

Another thing--I'm sick of seeing the words "rare" and "vintage" in eBay auctions. Aside from a few models like the elusive Macintosh ED, there are very few "rare" Macs. Pluses, SEs, Classics, 512Ks, and 128Ks (!) are all quite common. As some of you know, I had been a volunteer at the Goodwill warehouse (and plan on doing it again this summer) where many donated older Macs were stored. There were piles of compacts of all models from 128K to Classic II, including SE/30s and Color Classics. There were also tons of LCs. Not one of those models is uncommon. Also, we all know these machines are old. Someone looking for a 128K probably already knows that it is from 1984-1985, and if they don't know the exact year, they certainly have a good idea that it wasn't made in, say, 2002. The seven characters wasted on "vintage", four characters expended on "rare", and the space in between them could be used to describe something else, such as "working 400K", alerting the potential buyer that they won't have to repair a floppy drive upon arrival. (For novices, this could be a major selling point).

The best way to get old Macs at fair prices (or fair trades) is on sites such as this one or LEM Swap, where the actual value of the machine is recognized. eBay works fine for some things, but Mac 128Ks going for $500 and broken Mac Classic analog boards going for $100 are not among them.

[Dog Cow]

Another thing--I'm sick of seeing the words "rare" and "vintage" in eBay auctions.

Yeah, I know, right? I think it's funny. It's like,
"what eBay category are we in?"
"Oh, we're in the Vintage Apple category"
"I think I'll throw it in the title just to be on the safe side"

Hardly a week goes by where I don't see some auction that's like "this is super-rare unobtainium" and it's something that I have 2-3 copies of that were given to me by friends/family....

My current amusing trend that I'm seeing are the old box-type mice, you know, the ones for the Mac 128k, Plus, and Apple IIe, going for about $15-$20. Because about 3 weeks ago, I bought a lot of 2 original beige Mac mice, the super-old ones which have the square plug and Apple-logo thumbscrews, for $3. Just three dollars. Now about 2 weeks later, I'm seeing all of these mice (and even the newer, yet boxy ADB mice) going for about 5 times that amount.

Was I just lucky?

(As an aside, I just won an auction for the Apple IIc mouse, so now I should have every old-type Apple mouse (because I've also got some of the newer platinum colored mice for the newer 512k and Plus models) except the Lisa mouse, and maybe the black Mac TV mouse if you were to count that.)

[Mac128]

Dog Cow hit the nail on the head.

Really? I totally get someone pricing the thing for as much as they get, but seriously, in the current economic client, even living off mom and dad's money, where are these teenagers getting $500+ dollars to blow on a 128K Macintosh? Shouldn't some of these initially high priced items go unsold (and some do) as most cannot afford them? And not all of them start at $500, some start reasonably priced and cascade to these enormous amounts in the wee seconds of the auction. And if that's the case, where are these teenagers in the community? Aside from Paralel's admission, I'm not necessarily seeing these parentally-wealthy teenagers here (what's the most you've paid for a vintage compact anyway Paralel ... if you don't mind me prying – I've certainly paid some embarrassing amounts considering what these are). I mean how did these teenagers get involved with vintage Macs in the first place if not some online forum? I suppose they could just go out blindly on their own, with no contact with anyone else in the community, but seriously who does that if they want to learn more about something? Wow. Perhaps I am getting old, because this explanation just simply does not sound reasonable ...

[Dog Cow]

Not everyone is on hard times. And Scott Baret is probably over-generalizing when he says that it's all teenagers buying this stuff.

A Frenchman spent $1,000 about a month ago for the ProDOS 1.0 Golden Master source code. So it's not even all Americans buying this stuff.

I mean how did these teenagers get involved with vintage Macs in the first place if not some online forum? I suppose they could just go out blindly on their own, with no contact with anyone else in the community, but seriously who does that if they want to learn more about something?

I got started in 1998 when my grandfather gave me an SE/30 for Christmas. Since then, I've inherited most of his Apple collection, and the Apple collections of other friends and family members. That's how I got started, anyway.

It's only recently that I've actually started buying things.

[JDW]

...it's not like the 128K is particularly rare... there is NOTHING rare about them.

I'm sick of seeing the words "rare" and "vintage" in eBay auctions. Aside from a few models like the elusive Macintosh ED, there are very few "rare" Macs. Pluses, SEs, Classics, 512Ks, and 128Ks (!) are all quite common.

Bless you gentlemen for your sanity.

Death to "rare" on EBAY!
Victory to reasonable vintage Apple pricing!

[Mac128]

Not everyone is on hard times.

Very true. This is also the case in much better economic times. Yet the prices are really up there currently during the worst of them. They're having problems in France as well. No one has been immune to the collapse of the US stock Market. Look at the current situation in Greece – France will be helping to bail them out as a member of the EU.

As I said, I completely understand someone trying to get some extra money by selling their Mac collection. Even in good times, profiteers will price them extremely high. But, that wasn't really what I was getting at. Someone is paying these ridiculous amounts. Just because someone wants to sell it for these prices, doesn't mean anybody's gonna take them up on it. So truly, I am stunned that considering the state of the global economy, there are more people willing to pay a premium now, more than when the economy was much healthier.

[Dog Cow]

Yeah, I understand what you mean. Ordinarily, it shouldn't matter what other people are spending on their vintage stuff. It's not my money.

The problem comes when sellers realize that they can get people to pay more money for their retro wares, and I now I want to buy something and suddenly the prices are too high for my budget.

That's what I was talking about with the mouse story. People were selling these mice for peanuts about 3-4 weeks ago. People like me bought them. And now these sellers want to make even more money. So their prices have risen accordingly.

[Bunsen]

When money abandons one market, it seeks another. Record prices are being paid for gold and artworks too, I believe.

[Dog Cow]

Well, those are things certainly of value, much more so than old computer junk. And seeing as how gold is money, it'll never become worthless.

[yuhong]

Well, it may not be the seller's fault, look at the bidding logs.

[Paralel]

...Aside from Paralel's admission, I'm not necessarily seeing these parentally-wealthy teenagers here...

Just so no one gets the wrong impression, I'm no teenager, I'm a 3rd year medical student in my mid-20's. I'm about as poor as they come, I wish I was a teenager with parents who handed out money

Although I felt I did fit the description in the post preceding my own:

Could be that so many younger people have time on their hands (no jobs) and have started collecting old computers as a cheap hobby maybe?

Although I wouldn't say I have all that much time on my hands, it is a fun hobby.

...(what's the most you've paid for a vintage compact anyway Paralel ... if you don't mind me prying – I've certainly paid some embarrassing amounts considering what these are)...

The most I've paid for a Mac was ~$70 (incl. shipping) for my Classic II (10MB RAM/500MB HD) w/ ADB keyboard and mouse.

I'd like to get an SE/30 and upgrade the hell out of it, but I don't have the money for that.

As of the moment I'm trying to get a 933 Mhz QS-2002 w/ KB & mouse for ~$100 (incl. shipping)

[Osgeld]

heh my powermac 8500 was the most I had in a mac, ... bout 30$

either I am a good shopper, or a bad enthusiast

[Scott Baret]

The most I ever paid for a Mac was $1800...for a new iMac G4 in 2003. For a used Mac, I think the most I ever paid was $50 for a mint in-box Plus (if you're counting only 68Ks) or $100 for an iMac G3 (for newer items).

The reason I had said it was likely teenagers who were the recipients of these older Macs is because their parents may not know the value of the old Macs, especially if said parents are not into technology themselves. An old Mac on eBay often costs about as much as, say, a PlayStation or a few outfits from Abercrombie & Fitch, and as such, the parents are willing to spend that sort of money.

If you're wondering where folks are becoming interested in older Macs, it's probably from a non-web resource. School technology clubs may show off an old Mac from the storage closet. There may be a Mac at a rummage sale at a church that looks interesting. A friend may have an older Mac or two (I got one of my friends hooked on Shufflepuck in middle school and got my cousin into Number Munchers and Oregon Trail in fifth grade).

Also, someone getting into vintage Macs may not join these forums immediately and wait until something happens with their Mac. System 6 is pretty easy to figure out and the hardware is extremely easy to set up. If it's working fine and doesn't need new caps, there are likely to be few, if any, problems. You won't find fair price indexes for 68Ks on Low End Mac or any of the other sites that deal with older Macs.

Of course, it's not just teens. It just seems to be that they, as a group, are the ones who get these over-priced eBay Macs more than anyone, especially since they can get financial support from their parents (either in whole or part of the price). Also, when was the last time you saw a parent buying a Mac for their teen who isn't old enough to use eBay on their own yet on these forums looking for an older Mac?

Folks who have passed that age of emancipation also are sometimes unsure of the Mac prices and will sometimes spend $500 on a 128K to have an "original Mac". There's also that small group of people who will spend whatever it takes to get a certain item. The folks who have the money to spend will do it, just as some people spent five figures on those Bentley laptops that look like clamshell iBooks. The ones who need the money will sell their old Macs at inflated prices to those who have the money to spend or don't know about the prices of the older Macs.

[Bunsen]

Well, those are things certainly of value, much more so than old computer junk.

You may have a loose understanding of the meaning(s) of the word "value".

gold is money

No it isn't, and it hasn't been for many decades.

[Unknown_K]

Kids don't spend $500 for a retro mac, people with money do (people with jobs, trust funds, other valuables they can sell, etc).

I bet most people here who have collected for many years have $5K+ of ebay value in their collection. So if prices of the stuff they want keeps going up so does the old boring things they own they can sell or trade to get what they want. Even people just starting out in the hobby can still find things in various places to get going cheaply.

While gold has some value in electronics, it is still just a lump of metal. A Picasso might be valued at $200M but it is just a painting, if other art collectors decide he is no longer popular the value of the painting will drop like a rock. Collectables are only as valuable as the next guy willing to buy it. You will see some model macs rise in "value" on ebay in the coming months while others drop, it happens all the time. Some stuff I snagged for nothing one month people fight over the next.

[Bunsen]

Exactly. For example, you can't give 6100s and early PCI Macs away at the moment.

By creating and maintaining the content on this site - which almost always lists high on any google searches for information on certain models, methods and accessories - we have directly contributed to the environment where these Macs are seen as desirable collectables.

[Mac128]

Well, it may not be the seller's fault, look at the bidding logs.

I believe that is the point I have been making from the start. I am NOT blaming the sellers. Dog Cow is not wrong that some auctions start pre-maturely inflated as initiated by the seller. However, the vast majority of these auctions are pushed ever higher by the buyers who have some kind of bottomless riches lining their pockets unlike most folks in the world these days.

By creating and maintaining the content on this site - we have directly contributed to the environment where these Macs are seen as desirable collectables.

Eh. Not so sure about that. If anything this site routinely points out how little value the 128K holds. Unless you are suggesting these kinds of threads about how much they are going for are self-perpetuating. If anything these articles should warn people that they are overpaying, and could easily correct the situation if they refused to pay such inflated fees. The way people go on about SE/30s around here should have caused those prices to skyrocket. But as long as I have been collecting, the 128K has routinely blown the SE/30's prices out of the water (currently SE/30s are going for around $100 US). So I'm not entirely sure how our forum contributes to the inflated prices people are willing to spend on some of these specific models.

There's also that small group of people who will spend whatever it takes to get a certain item.

Yes, yes. But why now? Why at a time when the world's economy is depressed and people of all walks are spending more conservatively? Why not two years ago when the economy was thriving at the top of the bubble?

[Unknown_K]

There are threads started here about SE/30 upgrades that might have moved people to dump quite a bit of money into their SE/30's. The thing is with forums you only find them (as a non member) when you are looking to get something or upgrade it and start to Google. To be honest most people take what they read on the net with a grain of salt anyway. A casual collector will not dump the same cash as some die hard Apple collector will if they bump into a forum thread on SE/30 greyscale mods. Also there are many more collectors of old macs (and computer in general) they there have been or ever will be members on this forum, not that many people who even read threads here bother to join, and many Apple collectors don't even bother to find this place.

[Paralel]

...No it isn't, and it hasn't been for many decades...

Bunsen is right about this. "Money", as the term is generally used in 1st world societies, is a fiat (soft) currency with no intrinsic value which is not backed by anything other than the faith people place in the government printing the money. Gold is a "hard" currency and a store of wealth, but no, it is not "money".

Gold coins created by the government complicate the matter because they have a fiat equivalent face value but they also have a "hard" value in terms of the quantity of gold from which they were made. As such, gold coins issued by a government actually have two separate values which are not linked to one another. In this case, gold, in the form of a coin issued by the government, is indeed "money". However, this is the only exception where gold is "money" in a society that issues fiat currency, as gold not issued by a government as an object with a fiat equivalent face value is not "money".

[Osgeld]

Yes, yes. But why now? Why at a time when the world's economy is depressed and people of all walks are spending more conservatively? Why not two years ago when the economy was thriving at the top of the bubble?

maybe people need a hobby and see a 500$ investment down memory "better times" lane a better time killer than the next smart phone?

crap some people paid thousands of dollars, 25 years later 200 for a junky one just to play with is not so bad ( I mean keep in mind I gave 2 bucks for my last 2 macs and tossed in an extra dollar so everyone could buy a coke from the vending machine so I don't justify it)